Tag Archives: defending problematic characters

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monstersinthecosmos:

secret-les-mis-blog-ooo:

lestat & his relationship with abuse

there’s something to be said for lestat being abused in a home of disgraced aristocrats struggling financially and then becoming abusive later in life, using money & material possessions as a means of affection, communication, and control, all whilst relying heavily on social status. it’s almost like because he felt powerless, the second he was given this immense strength over virtually anyone or anything, he decided to make for himself what he associated with power. he knew his father had control over him, so he mimicked his controlling ways. he didn’t have as much money as he liked? well now he does! disgraced social standing? patron of the arts, member of high society! also louis loves to read and is in general, a fan of all things intellectual. we know lestat at one point wanted to go to school, wanted to read, wanted to write and was kept from that… yet he rags on louis for doing just that. louis was a plantation owner, he had plenty of money and overall good status to back it. he takes this man as his fledgling, and instantly he has control over him. he keeps him down, because even as a mortal he’s all the things he ever wanted and never got. he, in the very core of his being, is envious of louis. louis, however, in a way wears his heart on his sleeve. he’s very empathetic and feeling and is prone to depressive moods. lestat exploits this weakness and tries to position himself as “stronger” by pretending he isn’t hurting just as much inside from the “mortal coil” he claims he left behind. they both have their traumas. they’re struggling to deal with them in different ways… lestat won’t let it out, and louis won’t move on. they’re mirrors of each other. it’s the same dance to a different tune, and that is why they clash so aggressively in IWTV. i think each of them sees what they hate in themselves in each other, and also what they love. this is why in healthier circumstances than those created in IWTV, they are perfect for each other—they each provide something for each other that they can not consistently manufacture on their own. and this growth is what i think would have been a better path for canon to take as opposed to louis becoming complacent to lestat’s aggression, and lestat repeating the same broken patterns. but this is why we have fan fiction..im very glad that this is in the hands of arguably more consistent authors than anne.

bottom line is, i think people overlook the fact that lestat is also hurting but is just very good at hiding it + lying to himself about it. this isn’t to say that it excuses the way he treats louis, but it is more information about where these patterns are coming from and why. i think after being with lestat awhile, louis, being the intuitive person he is, probably sees through his act. even in IWTV he begins to assert himself to lestat, he isn’t afraid of him per say because he doesn’t genuinely believe him to be heartless like he pretends to be. because louis knows that in his own, broken way lestat loves him. and he loves him too. but if they want to grow that love, they have to begin to heal themselves before healing one another. and i like to interpret the times when louis goes to armand as his moments where he says, “i need to sit with my issues with someone quieter than you, and you need to do the same, because this just isn’t working right now”. each of them holds the key to everything the other fears, loves, and craves.

I wanna add @covenofthearticulate

‘s tags cause this is meaningful

these 👏🏻 two 👏🏻 fucks 👏🏻

I’m glad to see this addressed and there’s been some good discussion on this post, I think everyone on it has come to it with their own interpretations of the characters and the ship in question. I think overall, at least at the time of this reblog, the ppl on the post can agree to disagree. #Your headcanon may vary.

Personally, I do think Lestat was abusive towards Louis and I think @secret-les-mis-blog-ooo and @covenofthearticulate had some very astute comments about that, bringing up points about what might have led Lestat to be abusive, not providing excuses, but unpacking what makes an abuser tick, which can help us recognize abuse and stop ppl from becoming abusers in the real world.

I’m adding to the post but not looking to stir up any drama, I did want to add that @theoneandonlylestat was approaching the topic from a valid point of view, too, it’s true that all the VC characters are problematic in their own way. I thought that they had a good point that Louis’ interpretation of events could also be unreliable, and I’ve even thought about how Daniel’s publisher may have made things more scandalous to sell more books. Louis might also have lied by ommission.

^That said, I am more inclined to trust Louis’s report of things, even though I do think he left things out. There was only so much cassette tape available that night!  

The other thing I wanted to add is that abuse in fiction can be difficult for a reader to define. The first time I read IWTV I was 11 yrs old, and I loved Lestat, as one fan once put it, falling in love with Lestat is like falling headfirst down a flight of stairs. It’s an awkward falling in love, bc you know it’s wrong, but he’s fictional! Why not?!

And I didn’t see Lestat as abusive. I saw him as this fun bad guy, this antagonist who would make snappy comments at Louis and Claudia and threaten them sometimes, but usually with some humor laced in, his bark was usually worse than his bite, and he’d physically push them around somewhat, but 11 yr old me was accustomed to Looney Tunes characters being pushed off of cliffs, stabbed, shot, steamrolled, etc. and coming back for a new cycle of violence every few minutes. Physical violence can be entertaining, it can be cathartic.

Later on when I reread IWTV, and read posts, and had discussions with other fans like @wicked-felina, I realized that Lestat certainly was being abusive, with the things he would say and do to Louis and Claudia. The physical abuse came into a new light bc I understood the concept of abuse in the real world much better.

^All this is not to say that I demand everyone agree with me and we all denounce Lestat as a horrible abusive demon!! <—-sarcasm. Not at all, not what this is about. It’s not about vilifying a problematic character, which tumblr discussion can veer towards, so I can see why this post had friction.

Too often it’s “This character was/is abusive, THEREFORE, he should be deleted from canon and fandom!”

Here, it’s “We see that this character was/is abusive, FURTHERMORE, this may be why he acted this way, not excusing the abuse, but we want to know WHY.” <—which can lead to understanding the roots of abuse and recognizing it in the real world. Which, to me, is part of the point of fiction. To entertain, yes, but also, to teach us something about the real world.

Being able to discuss abusers in fiction is useful in that it can show that abusers can come across as beautiful, charming, and loving, when they’re not being abusive. Abuse comes in subtle and not-so-subtle forms. It’s good to be able to talk about it and be able to see it for what it is.

But in the same respect, not everyone will define smtg in fiction as abuse. When I was 11 yrs old it was amusing to me. I still find it entertaining in fiction but I 100% do not endorse it in real life.

We can all still love an abusive character and not support his actions in real life.

In Marius’ defence; getting very personal

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dannymolloy:

First of all, there has been some confusion here on Tumblr as to what my intentions are with this post. If you read this and honestly believe I condone pedophilia, I can tell you now; I don’t. Simple as that. If you read this post, written out of my own emotions and translate that to me not caring about yours, that’s simply false. Just because I share mine, doesn’t mean I don’t care about yours. Each their own. Simple as that. 
If you truly believe I wrote this piece to trivialize abuse victims and/or glorify sexual predators, you think very poorly of me and I invite you to come and talk to me to get to know me better. I guarantee you, I’m a very nice, loving and caring person.

Secondly, we’re talking about a fandom. Almost in all fandoms, there is love for protagonists and antagonists alike. This does not mean we condone crime, rape and murder in real life. Look at the love for The Joker, Sephiroth, Moriarty, The Master,  Mason Verger etc. Is everyone that loves these characters a bigot and contributor to the trivialising of crime victims? No. Wether it’s a villain that not so bad or a ‘hero’ that’s not all good; it is still fiction.
No matter how real our feelings are for certain fictional characters, this is not a real reflection of our stance in real life. Period.
Especially in VC, the fandom is based on loving killers. We love Lestat. We love Armand. All the vampires in VC have done horrible, horrid stuff, taken lives and committed an array of criminal acts to (for example) get undeniable wealth. To go into this and pin pointing one guy with a flaw that makes him in all honesty a villain (Marius in this case); is funny to me as they then all are. They are all criminals. They are all killers, arsonists and thieves and all have their own mental issues to cope with. I will gladly have discussions about individual characters and their crimes or contributions to the fandom, but don’t point fingers saying I discredit crime victims when the whole series does that in romanticizing vampirism in the first place. If you don’t like the books, I discourage you to read this post or anything I post on my Daniel blog. 

If someone reads this and still finds me a horrible person, I insist you contact me personally in PM for an open conversation. Don’t hide behind others. If you want your voice to be heard, speak up. I am open to any civil, reasonable conversation.

ON TO THE ACTUAL POST.

——

One of my dear friends just messaged me about how she feels terrible about the fact that Marius is being portrait as an abusive monster by a lot of people of the fandom and nothing but that. And I just want to share with you my story to let you guys know why there are people out there that love him.

Reading this story take in account that I am religious.
When I was 15 I got into a particular fandom which stimulated my art, my creatively and my love for roleplay. I fell madly in love with one of the characters and RPed him for a looooong time. Nonstop. Only back then I did not know what a muse was. I did not know of the word. And darker forces took advantage of that. When it was revealed that this particular character died in the next book, it tore my heart to shreds. And instead of experiencing the muse as an inspirational source for my writing, it became a constant presence that would ‘talk’ to me. Said it came to be with me. Demand things of me. For almost two years this thing pretending to be him tried to isolate me and drag me down a dark path. I would be his and only his. I even broke up with a boyfriend back then whom I was crazy about. Because he told me to. And in the end he would even start telling me to off myself to truly be with him. Thank god something then clicked in me, only then realising this was going too far. I believe by recognising it, God reached out and expelled it. This thing left. But I didn’t realise it was my own strength- my own doing that did this. So I was distraught. It broke me. It left me depressed and unhappy for more years than I dare admit. It ruined my ability to be romantically involved with anyone which I still suffer from till this day.

But then something happened. I got introduced to the Vampire Chronicles fandom. I was scared at first. The confrontation with such strong, vibrant characters and the overwhelming subject of death made me so very weary for this fandom. But when I reached the point in The Vampire Lestat where Marius dug Lestat up and Lestat said he had never laid eyes on something so beautiful, I was roused. And as I kept reading, this Marius- this beautiful, man so full of life and optimism and love for life made me smile again. He was calm and wise and friendly and so extremely patient. An artist too and in love with everything beautiful in life. He appreciated the simple gesture of opening a door and all his strength and power made him humble towards weakness. Through his death, he only loved life more. All these lessons overwhelmed me. Shook me to my core. Slapped me in the face and told me this was the muse to follow.
And he saved me. He literally saved me.
I smiled again. I started appreciating life again. I went back to art school. I started appreciating the small beauties around me again. He opened my eyes again to the beauty of living.
Getting back into roleplay scared me but I met a girl who for the first time explained what a muse was and only then did I realise that I had been tricked. That I had been taken advantage of by darker forces. And so then I decided that if I was going to RP again, I was going to keep the now called muses at a distance. And I did. And I still do. And I can enjoy it again. I can enjoy life again.

—–

In Marius’ defence

Yes, after reading all the books, I realise he has major issues. I know he made some really bad decisions and a million more mistakes. But let me tell you; I was happy to see he wasn’t perfect. I was relieved to know that even those we look up to are flawed. And yes, in the span of his life, which is over 20 lifetimes!!!!, it is really quite OKAY for him to make more mistakes than we do in a lifetime. But lets not forget he is a vampire. Do we blame a lion for killing the antelope? No. It’s in his nature. Do we blame a vampire for manipulating and taking lives? No. It’s in their nature. It is quite unfair to throw shade at Marius for faltering every now and then when he so desperately tries to be human.
And then there are some things I wish to point out that people seem to forget.

– If it wasn’t for Marius, The Parents would have died thousands of years ago and the vampire race would have gone extinct. There would literally be no VC if it wasn’t for Marius sacrificing his freedom to harness and protect the Core.

– The knowledge of Marius’ possible existence was the thing that kept Lestat going in TVL. It was Marius that dug him out of the ground for a second shot at life. It was Marius who showed Lestat there was more to vampirism than the pain he had suffered so far.

– Without Marius intervening, Daniel would have been lost. Despite Marius’ double agenda to kill his own loneliness or feeble attempts to make it up to Armand, taking Daniel in was an act of kindness. Marius saved Daniel and only could through his endless patience.

– Marius welcomes Mael into his house. This is such an important aspect of his endless attempts to be good. Do not forget Marius was a very, very happy man in his mortal days. Mael stole that away from him. He robbed him of a simple but wonderful life and tossed him into this whirlpool of death and loneliness and misery. And yet Marius lets him sleep under his roof and offers him his own clothes!! His kindness is often obscured by acts of petty behaviour, but in his heart he is a genuinely good man who wants peace. He tries. And that is what matters.

– It is Santino that destroyed Armand. Not Marius. It gets my blood boiling when people have Armand speak in defence of Santino and somehow dare to shove all the blame onto Marius. Despite his questionable ethics with children, Marius wanted nothing but to give the boys and especially Amadeo a second chance in life. He wanted to make him happy, knowledgeable, successful and powerful. Marius is not the one that set the Palazzo on fire. Marius is not the one that tossed children in a fire. Marius is not the one that cruelly made Amadeo kill his best friend.
Marius is the one that got burned to the bone and had to recover for 100 YEARS!! Marius is the one that had to suffer the loss of all his children. The loss of his happiness he experienced in Venice. The loss of his acolyte. The loss of his empire. His pupil. His lover. Marius is the one that served Akasha and was therefor told to leave Amadeo behind. I am not saying he was right in leaving Amadeo behind. Yes, t was one of the biggest mistakes he made. Despite being weak and in excruciating pain, he gave up on Amadeo because Santino had already tainted him. The fact that Amadeo forgot about his trauma’s in the past, Marius had a clean slate to make the best piece of art he had ever made. But Santino went over it with a sharpy and Marius, forever being the perfectionist, did not see a chance of saving it. And yes, that was wrong of him. And yes, he should have tried to get Amadeo back and save him. But it is extremely unfair to forget all these things in play. Marius suffered tremendously through this ordeal and caught his own traumas on the way.

– He stays positive. He couldn’t marry the girl he loved due to discrimination. He was kidnapped. He was robbed of his mortal life by a man whom he later had to safe by pulling his head off and putting it back the right way. Three of his houses got burned down to the ground. He sacrificed his own freedom for the sake of his kind by taking care of The Parents. Akasha then thanked him by crushing him and breaking all his bones. He lost his happiness and the love of his life by a Satan-worshipping cult. He suffered 100 years because he was set on fire. He got the chance to finally be with the woman he loved but literally missed the memo. And yet… he stays positive. His natural optimism of living a happy, mortal life is what kept him going. It’s what made him a child of the millennia. He is the eternal optimist because he knows how precious life is.

So again; I am not saying you don’t have any right or reasons to dislike Marius or distrust him. All I want to say with this, is that despite his flaws, he inspired and set in motion more than the fandom gives him credit for. He suffered more than the fandom gives him credit for.
He saved my life and therefor I will always defend him. He deserves it.

This is a long post, I’m sorry for the dash intrusion, and for making it even longer, but for a year and a half now I have often thought about this post. It’s one of the posts on tumblr that has most stuck with me in the past 5 years. I always wanted to reblog it, but didn’t have the courage until now, bc I felt that the spotlight that my blog can put on a post can sometimes exacerbate an issue. Such is the nature of social media 2.0, where controversy is what makes posts explode (do we still say “go viral”?) more often than not.

But I’m reblogging it now and I’ve bolded some things for ease of skipping around so as not to read through all of it. For what I have to add, tho, NO CUTS WE LONGPOST LIKE MEN.

So…

I remember when I first saw this post in March of 2017, I was floored, immediately deeply respected it in its entirety, and how OP has kept it in their archive, even when challenged about it. I have often cited this post, referred to it, shared it privately with others. And in the event that OP ever deactivates or deletes this post, I wanted a version of it I could point to and say, with pride:

This is the kind of fan I aspire to be. Showing love for a fictional character who had a positive influence on them, a real person.

This character for sure has flaws, and has been interpreted at different times as being

problematic, and sometimes not at all. If I recall correctly, at least from the fics I was able to find during the war on fanfic the mid-1990′s, Marius was sometimes written as an uncool Dad figure, setting rules for Lestat & Co. to break, typically in silly!fics. At other times, I’ve known fans who found inspiration in his intense dedication to keeping TWMBK and the development of his art in painting and film, etc. and hardly focus on any other aspect of him. I personally see him as the adoptive benefactor trope, with some teacher/student kink, the dedication to his art, etc., and some of that romance novel stuff mixed in. I’m not a hardcore shipper of him with anyone but I do love the shippy fanart/fic people make, bc it’s made by fans as an expression of their love for the characters, it’s the artists and writers I love more than the fictional characters. And I know of people who are convinced that Marius is little more than a lure for Anne Rice’s alleged thinly-veiled pedophile propaganda. 

^None of these ideas of him are totally wrong, and although there may be some things about him that more of us may agree on, to my mind, none of this is totally right, either, because he’s a fictional character and we all draw our own and equally valid interpretations based on our own educations and experiences. A person might find him as

absolutely

inspiring as someone else might find him absolutely disgusting. Neither are right or wrong. It’s not that black and white, in my opinion.

I want to highlight this from OP:

“No matter how real our feelings are for certain fictional characters, this is not a real reflection of our stance in real life. Period.”

*WILD APPLAUSE*

Your interpretation of a fictional character does not supersede anyone else’s, no matter how well-supported your arguments are, no matter what the author of the original work says about their characters, etc.

When a person claims that Character X saved their lives/made their life better/inspired them in a positive way, you don’t get to decide that Character X didn’t.

Granted, you can certainly flip that around and state: “When a person claims that Character X ruined their lives/made their life worse/inspired them in a negative way, you don’t get to decide that Character X didn’t.” That may be true, but if a fictional character had such negative impact on your life, wouldn’t you want to stop reading that book/series, at the very least? Which is what OP described above, and thankfully, they were able to unload that negative influence.

Personally, I would stop reading that book, I would find something I found more positively inspiring. Maybe I would seek therapy, I’m sure JAWS and IT sent people to seek professional help. I don’t mean that with any sarcasm, I have had therapy sessions in the past, and found it extremely helpful. I for sure wouldn’t have the energy or interest to try to preach that others see the light of how negative this character is. You can blame violent videogames and Marilyn Manson music for school shooters, doesn’t mean that that media is solely responsible, but I’m not providing links for that bc this is not a blog for that. @fiction-is-not-reality might better direct you on that.

It feels incredibly childish for me to say this but: I wish we could stop waging wars over characters. I don’t jump on posts or respond to asks that seem like they’re coming from a place of bad faith on this topic. I come to fandom for entertainment, to unwind, to be among my friends. I don’t have time for unwinnable arguments that are more about moral superiority than anything else. 

Good or bad faith arguments about problematic characters, it doesn’t really matter either way, as it’s been around since long before the internet, it’s going to keep happening as long as people can communicate in whatever form it takes. It just seems to have escalated in fandom in the last few years and this is where we’re at right now, it seems, so my comments on this post are for OP, as an apology that I should have added these comments a year and a half ago, and my comments are for anyone who loves fictional characters, however problematic others may say they are, no matter how problematic they are in canon, no matter how problematic their own original authors say they are! Try to be as strong as OP and I when people come at you for liking, what is essentially, ink on a page.

Creation/consumption of ANY fiction =/= endorsement of it in real life.

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monstersinthecosmos:

While digging through my drafts just now to clear some posts out I was reminded of my habit of seeing something stupid on Tumblr and writing a vicious text post in response to roast all the idiots and douchebags and then drafting it instead of publishing it because ultimately my blog is my own space and I have the control of the tone I set, and it’s my general goal to keep it relaxed and breezy in here. (Despite what my penchant for angst might say LOL).

Common themes include:

  • That I am a Grown Ass Adult and I hate all forms of censorship.
  • I don’t have children and don’t give a fuck about other people’s children. And when I say that I am generally speaking about the purity police on tunglr dot com who are worried about all the 14 year olds lurking around. And, whoops, they’re definitely not my problem. 
  • Making me responsible for other people’s children is a step above telling me that my only use as a biological female is to make babies.
  • I especially dislike being censored and restricted for the sake of the children who do not occupy my house. (Including lists where this manifests in the Real World, outside of Tumblr, ie: rules about pot edibles, cable television, childproof drug bottles.)
  • Ranting about the cognitive dissonance of people who would typically be on the SJW side of things and don’t realize how their bullshit plays exactly into real world conservatism and how that’s uhhhhhh not good lmao. (See previous point about censorships and safeguards in the Real World, often put into place by the religious right.)
  • If one more person tries to re-victimize me by telling me which of my childhood experiences traumatized me and forbidding me to interact with them I s2g I’m gonna start breaking some jaws. (Which is funny considering that one of said experiences involved getting punched in the face so hard that it damaged the ligaments in my face and my jaw still clicks but that’s beside the point.)
  • Not to be a dick (well, only a little) but honestly like 99% of the bullshit on this site is so ideological and nonsensical and hypothetical and doesn’t fucking happen outside in the real world and a lot of your anguish would be solved if you’d just go outside and interact with real human beings who do not live in your dashboard echochamber. 

Anyway. I SAY ALL THAT TO SAY.  Just imagine a day I rant and rave about any of these topics and just go fuckin wild. Just imagine. Pretend it happened.

^AGREED WITH ALL OF THE ABOVE. I also hate all forms of censorship, especially the more recent wave of censorship under the flags of “This is Problematic” and “Romanticizes/Normalizes X.” 

I’ve been ramping up my defense of Dark Fiction, as you may have noticed. I’m not thrilled about it, but it’s a recent development. I do it because there was an attempt to shame me for Liking Bad Things and I felt that my silence was acceptance of this, and so, for those who may be too shy to defend their right to consume/create whatever tf they want, I want them to see that this blog is a citadel of support for fans who choose to like what they want to like and make/enjoy the fanworks they want to see in the world. 

I try to promote civility in the fandom and encourage the creation and sharing of fanworks. IMO, that’s the lifeblood of the fandom. It is trampling other fans when someone demands that a fan interact a certain way on the fan’s own blog, tries to shame them for liking specific characters, or tries to get that fan to leave a fandom altogether. That, to me, is one of the worst crimes in a fandom. Attempting to crush someone’s love for a fictional character or ship is divisive and unnecessary. No, we do not need to critique or examine or do anything we don’t want to. 

No one can tell you how to fandom. Please don’t let them bully you. Please don’t self-censor for them. Everyone with internet access is responsible for their own experience here, common courtesy would be tagging your posts so that they can avoid certain characters/ships/etc. If someone cannot handle your liking a fictional character, it is on them to deal with it accordingly. 

There are blogs out here that are better at wording all this than I am, I highly recommend that you check them out: @fiction-is-not-reality, @freedom-of-fanfic, @shippingisnotactivism, @shipwhateveryouwant, @who-gives-a-ship, @bitteroldfandomqueen, @restoringsanity, @anti-anti-survivor, @theassholeantiarchive, @block-report-program, @yoonbum-indrag, @yourshipisfine, @history-student-against-antis, @wilting-blooming,  @victim-that-speaks, @bai-xue, @educating-antis, @antipurity, @allships–are–goodships, @tirediscourse, @shippy-mcdiscourse, @shipping-isnt-morality, @antis-delete-your-blogs-pls, @frisk-against-antis, @himedanshi, @fuccdiskhorse, @just-antithings.

…possibly more in the notes on this post.

As I wrote on this post (OP: @pazithigallifreya), and it bears repeating: Please don’t feel like you have to literally ask anyone for permission to hold certain opinions. I’m happy to share my ideas, but they are only my ideas. I’m a random stranger on the internet! I love my followers, the interactions we’ve had, the messages you’ve sent me publicly and privately over the past few years have kept my blog alive, and I can’t thank you enough for that ❤

But! If I can just paraphrase from that post, Do not give some random stranger on the internet that much power over your mind! Don’t be so afraid of forming your own opinions that you have to ask someone else to give you opinions to hold!

Please do not become part of some random stranger on the internet’s rabble ready to crucify anyone who doesn’t do as they are told!

is it ok to like darkfic if you’ve never been abused?

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portraitoftheoddity:

Absolutely.

First off, darkfic as an umbrella term encompasses a lot of subjects and ‘dark’ topics, abuse being only one of many. It may be therapeutic for people who’ve endured abuse, but it can also be helpful for people who’ve struggled with other forms of trauma, or with mental illness, or other negative things. Depictions of intense, dark experiences can serve as a catharsis by being a direct analog for one’s own experiences, but they can also function more indirectly as a parallel, or a metaphor. Someone who has not been assaulted, but who has struggled with mental illness, may find a story about an assault victim resonating with them as they can identify with the fear and lack of control. And someone who has never been through a specific traumatic experience, but has a lot of fear of it and cultural anxiety around it, may feel bolstered by stories of characters surviving and recovering from that experience.

So for many people, with many different experiences, there can be a direct, therapeutic/comforting benefit to darkfic. 

But darkfic doesn’t need to be therapeutic.

There are, of course, other kinds of benefits. Someone who has never been abused might read a story featuring abuse (and clearly tagged for it) and because of it, identify potential warning signs in a real life relationship down the road and know to get out early before things get worse. Or, they might develop a better understanding of what abuse victims go through and as a result, have more empathy for real-life survivors they encounter. 

But it’s also 100% ok to like darkfic purely for entertainment value! It is, after all, fiction. 

Dark stories challenge us – and we can really enjoy that challenge. They take us to extremes of emotion and the human experience. They plumb the depths of the human id. Even someone with the most charmed life still lives in a world where bad things happen, and even the sweetest, naive person has the capacity for darkness in them. Darkfic lets all of us explore those in relative safety. It makes us feel, and can thrill and horrify us as much as any thriller or horror movie. It can make us consider our own darkness, and be more aware of it. And it can take us to a place so much worse than our reality, that when we resurface into our mundane lives, there’s a sense of relief; we’ve escaped from our escapism, and our hum-drum lives seem so much better and more manageable by comparison. 

Plenty of people create dark content who aren’t abuse survivors. There are books with very dark themes that are written by, edited by, published by, and consumed and made popular by people who have not been abused, but which may prove a lifeline for a survivor – one that might not have existed if the entire genre was limited to only people with lived experience. And by accepting that anyone can produce or consume dark content, we allow survivors the protection of anonymity, by not forcing anyone to disclose and reveal their trauma in order to justify liking a work without being harassed and shamed for it. Creating an exclusive club of heavily-scrutinized creators and readers who have to be ‘this traumatized to ride’ helps no one. Hell, trying to pass moral judgement on anyone by scrutinizing the potential reasons they may have for enjoying certain kinds of fictional reading material, rather than looking at their actions toward real breathing human beings, is utterly inane. Especially when fiction – including, and sometimes especially dark fiction – can be used to expand our horizons beyond our own lived experiences make us more thoughtful, empathetic people on the whole. 

fiction is not responsible for reality

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shinelikethunder:

OK, I’m going to come right out and say it:

Fiction does not affect reality.

Fiction affects people. And people affect reality.

Can fiction have an indirect effect on reality? Sure. But it’s not what’s responsible. People are the ones with moral agency. They are the ones responsible for what they do with the ideas they’ve been exposed to.

You want to defuse the harm you think a work of fiction can do? Target the links in the chain that actually matter:

  • Criticize bad ideas to change how they affect people. Don’t criticize with the aim of suppressing, criticize with the aim of discrediting. Censorship/silencing just keeps people from being exposed to ideas once, in a particular context, and leaves them unprepared when they encounter them elsewhere or come up with them themselves. A thorough rebuttal of a bad idea inoculates them against it and puts them on their guard next time they run into it.

  • Educate people about what aspects of a work of fiction would be harmful or dangerous in real life. If applicable, educate them on how to safely experience something similar. Don’t educate with the aim of killing their love of the fictional version–you will lose them, and it’s cruel and unnecessary. Educate with the aim of promoting understanding of how the fictional version does, and doesn’t, translate to reality.

Like. These are the underlying worries beneath “fiction affects reality,” aren’t they? Worry that someone will absorb messed-up ideas that aren’t adequately disclaimed/discredited in the text. Worry that someone will try to act out something that looks fun and exciting in fiction but is dangerous in real life. So cut out the middleman and go straight to the person whose choices affect reality. Don’t smack the book out of their hand, just tell them: I know you like that ship, but it’s okay if a similar RL relationship sets off all your alarm bells and leaves you scrambling for the exit. Because no matter how romantic the ship is, IRL that would be abuse.

Fiction needn’t be educational and fiction doesn’t always have clear-cut endorsements of who’s in the right. But the discussion that happens around fiction can include both.

Since childhood I’ve been faithful to monsters. I’ve been saved and absolved by them because monsters are the patron saints of our blissful imperfections.

Guillermo del Toro in his Golden Globe acceptance speech. (via shapeofh2o)

Has anyone ever asked Anne if she is ever going to write about Magnus? Full novel, not just things here and there about him?

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bloodyvampchrons:

i-want-my-iwtv:

(Omg, if you’d written to me back in Feb. of this year, there was a blogger @somniferousdelusion, now deactivated ;A; who said Magnus was their fave character, this blogger could have been someone you might have had good convos with… Does anyone know if they just changed urls?)

No, I don’t think AR has ever been asked about writing a full novel about Magnus, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she did! What are you drawn to about Magnus? There’s plenty of room for fanfic/headcanons about him, so if you are so inclined… write it for us!

I feel like if you want a book about Magnus you must be fascinated with him in some way, so I don’t mean to trample you if you do, but from all my time in fandom, I can say that Magnus is probably considered among the Absolute Worst if not THE MOST Problematic character in the whole series.*

>>>Quick interlude, on the subject of Problematic characters: I found this great essay by Warren Ellis. Here’s a taste, with my emphasis added in bold:

“… Fiction is how we both study and de-fang our monsters. To lock violent fiction away, or to close our eyes to it, is to give our monsters and our fears undeserved power and richer hunting grounds.”

*….Which could be good for him bc AR has been taking the Absolute Worsts and putting them on pedestals lately. I don’t know what you’ve read so far, but as you may be aware, Magnus tells his story, albeit briefly, in Prince Lestat.

image

Magnus is also in Prince Lestat and the Realms of Atlantis in a snazzy new… erm… “form”?, so we’ll probably see more of him, but my money is on AR focusing on how cool he is now, and not really digging any further into his past or forcing Lestat to have any difficult conversations with him, which they sort of briefly had in PLROA.

There was a Magnus RPer, @theycallmemagnus​, gone inactive now, but you might find good stuff in their archive, might reach out to any active RPers you find there, who may be into talking about the character. 

// Hey, just adding my 2 cents here, after 10 yrs in this fandom I don’t think there’s any kind of general consensus on who’s the “worst” character in the VC series, and I don’t think it’s really a relevant question either. We see Magnus as an antagonist because he’s mortal!Lestat’s personal bogeyman and Lestat is the narrator, but the same could be said of many beloved characters in the series if their stories were told from a different perspective.

As someone who read the series, spotted the former cult leaders and torturers and went “THIS ONE. THIS ONE IS MY BABY”, don’t feel bad about liking Magnus’ character just because he’s a villain.

He’s a brilliant medieval alchemist who successfully attained eternal life (how many alchemists can say that they actually ACHIEVED the Ultimate Goal??) by figuring out how vampires turned each other and then replicating the process by capturing a vampire and “stealing” the Blood! And then he lived for centuries and eventually went mad! It could be taken straight from an early 20th century horror story à la H. P. Lovecraft or M. R. James, and I for one think it’s awesome.

(ETA: original post edited after reblog, so consider reblogging from OP)

Great addition, @bloodyvampchrons! (The part I removed when I edited the post is under the cut.)

I will 1,000% defend anyone’s interest in any fictional characters, for any reason. @awareofwhatsaforementioned did not express anything other than an interest in learning more about this character, specifically: whether the author would write more about him. That’s all. 

Not all fiction is written as propaganda. Not all fiction is written for wish-fulfillment. Fiction may not exist in a vacuum, but it also is, in the end, just a story. It can be shelved, burned, critiqued, enjoyed, by any reader who encounters it. 

Problematic characters are there to antagonize, to provide friction, obstacles, whatever the author intends for them to do. Maybe even to be a Hate Sink:

  • “A Hate Sink is a character whose intended role in the story (the role the authors made for him/her) is to be so despicable that the audience wants him or her to fail just as much as they want the heroes to succeed. However, this individual doesn’t have to be the main villain of the story, or even a villain at all. 
  • …A Hate Sink [provides] an easy target for the reader/audience/player’s contempt where there may not be one, and can serve as a foil to more likable Anti-Hero or Anti-Villain characters. 

Essays and books have been written about it, so I’m not going into it in depth, but the issue I see again and again on tunglr dot com is Black and White Morality. From TVTropes.org: 

  • “Good versus Evil. White hat versus black hat. The shining knight of destiny with flowing cape versus the mustache-twirling, card-carrying force of pure malevolence. The most basic form of fictional morality, Black And White Morality deals with the battle between pure good and absolute evil.
  • …- Motivation: The villains never have a sympathetic motivation for their actions. There aren’t any Well-Intentioned Extremists,… Rather, their intentions are entirely for the sake of Evil (and may involve taking over or destroying the world).”

^Even the most horrific fictional crimes might be done by a character thinking he is doing the right thing, in his own mind. 

  • “In Real Life, seeing the world in absolute Black and White Morality is considered normal for small children, but seen as a far less healthy trait in adults. A person who regards the people around him as entirely good or entirely evil has this.” – Black and White Insanity – TVTropes.org

Every reader can interpret the text differently, and very little is known of Magnus’ intentions. Before you cry MURDER/RAPE APOLOGIST, any reader exploring the reasons for a character’s crime =/= making excuses for it. 

Creating/Consuming/Exploring dark fiction and problematic characters =/= endorsement of these things in real life.

People are accountable for actual crimes, not thought crimes.

Give me 100,000 fans like @awareofwhatsaforementioned. In my opinion, the greatest fandom crime is to chase other fans away from fandom by shaming them for having an interest in dark fiction or problematic characters. 

I won’t engage in pointless unwinnable debate over what a fan is allowed to be interested in, but to make someone feel ashamed enough about what they’re interested in to the point of making them leave a fandom is a loss to us all. Think of all the friends and discussions they miss out on, all the fanworks they never get to see, or MAKE. 

I want the longfic of Magnus’ backstory. I want the fanart of him as a kid, as a monster, all of it! If I’m the only one, so be it. But I don’t think I’m the only one. As I said in my original reply:

There’s plenty of room for fanfic/headcanons about Magnus, so if you are so inclined… write it for us!

 

I feel like if you want a book about Magnus you must be fascinated with him in some way, so I don’t mean to trample you if you do, but from all my time in fandom, I can say that Magnus is probably considered among the Absolute Worst if not THE MOST Problematic character in the whole series.*

>>>Quick interlude, on the subject of Problematic characters: I found this great essay by Warren Ellis. Here’s a taste, with my emphasis added in bold:

“… Fiction is how we both study and de-fang our monsters. To lock violent fiction away, or to close our eyes to it, is to give our monsters and our fears undeserved power and richer hunting grounds.”

*….Which could be good for him bc AR has been taking the Absolute Worsts and putting them on pedestals lately. I don’t know what you’ve read so far, but as you may be aware, Magnus tells his story, albeit briefly, in Prince Lestat.

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futurecatladies:

feynites:

Winning the villain over to your side is a power fantasy.

Like, a really big one, too.

Social emphasis has it that men should value strength,
aggression, and violence, and women should value kindness, empathy, and
community. But really, anyone who has
learned to prefer social success to might/aggression is going to favour a
strategy where you can make your enemies into allies of some kind, over one
where you just kill them. As a display of dominance, killing is overly
simplistic. And it’s also hard to ignore the reality that luck usually has more
to do with most fights than actual strength.

So, many people vastly prefer stories where the villains don’t
die, but instead, get won over by the hero. It’s also a much more prevalent
power fantasy among women than it is among men, because women are often taught
that violence on our parts is inherently distasteful and ignoble. If you can’t defeat your enemies by putting a
bullet in their heads, then what could
be more satisfying than convincing that enemy to come and fight other people on
your behalf instead?

This is a major component to why villains end up as popular
shipping material. I honestly don’t think it’s the ‘bad boy’ impulse, or some
branch of misogyny, or at least, not in a majority of cases. It’s a total and
sincere power fantasy. Someone going ‘all I care about is myself and all I want
to do is DESTROY THE WORLD MWAHAHAHA’ meeting you and then being like ‘oh no
wait I also want to please you and spend time with you and I want that so much
that I will now give up those other things’ implies an intoxicating level of
charisma.

Of course, like most power fantasies, it pays to tread
carefully with it. Because real life rarely accommodates such things, and as
with some muscle-bound hero easily lifting a house over his head, being able to
take a wholly selfish being and convert them into a devoted companion is… unlikely to happen outside of fiction.
For a lot of reasons.

However, I bring it up because I am C O N S T A N T L Y
seeing the compulsion to ship characters with villains misattributed to A)
agreeing with the villains, B) some form of self-hatred, C) a noble impulse
towards compassion and understanding, or D) sheer stupidity, and really… it’s
just another power fantasy. Wonder Woman punches a tank. Tony Stark buys an
entire island. Storm calls down a lightning strike. Batman outwits all his clever foes. And some seemingly random,
ordinary human woman convinces Lex Luthor to chill out and stop trying to kill
Superman. It’s all power, displayed
in fantastical proportions.

(Which isn’t to say that you have to like it or think that
every such relationship is good and healthy, gods no, but once you realize that
everyone’s just pretending to be the Superman of relationships, it’s easier to just go ‘oh that’s what you’re after’ and… y’know… fret less.)

It’s no huge secret why I’m into ships where the guy has to confront the fact that he’s super duper wrong and the girl (in various ways) helps make him see that.

With a lot of men generally, but specifically with some in my life, that’s never ever going to happen.  That’s why, for me, a fulfilling narrative where a guy realizes and confronts his mistakes is better than the best PWP, tbh.