the following are concepts that i quickly learned my way around when growing up in fandom, but that seem to have fallen out of use recently. i’d like to propose a revival of…
NOTP: a pairing that, for whatever reason, you simply cannot stand. it can be because the ship repulses you morally, or because you hate one of the characters, or love them both but despise their dynamic – or just because looking at it makes you uncomfortable, for whatever reason.
different from labeling something a “bad ship” in that it implies an entirely personal preference.
calling a ship your NOTP informs others that you really, really, REALLY dislike it, while also acknowledging that you don’t know what other people’s reasons are for shipping it, or what interpretations they may have that makes it work for them.
a cool way of avoiding stuff you hate while also not morally condemning thousands of complete strangers for liking it.
squick: similar to notp, but goes for anything, not just romantic pairings. something you just don’t like, either for specific reasons or just because it irrationally repulses you.
not as severe as a trigger in the sense that it doesn’t cause any extreme and potentially harmful reactions – it’s just something you’d rather not see, because it grosses you the fuck out. and that’s okay.
decent people respect other people’s squicks, while also remembering it’s cool for other people to like things they personally are squicked by.
this works as long as everyone agrees not to be dicks and shove stuff in people’s faces in unwarranted ways.
crackship: a ship that just doesn’t make any sense. there’s absolutely no chance that these characters would ever end up together.
perhaps they’ve never interacted. perhaps they are on opposite sides of a war. perhaps one of them died a thousand years ago. for whatever reason, there’s zero possibility of this becoming canon.
still, you’d like to see how they’d romantically mesh, to explore their dynamic or a what-if scenario – or maybe they’re just two characters you really like to imagine smooching one another.
the fact that it isn’t and never will be canon doesn’t matter, and can even be part of the appeal. it certainly does not invalidate the ship’s existence. the ultimate form of doing something just for fun.
these words all help describe the cool concept of doing stuff you enjoy, while also realizing others may be doing things you hate, but not in order to victimize you personally. live and let live! give people the benefit of the doubt! it’s a good time. we should all try it.
[By the way, I usually answer things with a relevant fanart/image/gif, but in this case, I think it’s too serious a topic for that.]
“And I sincerely apologize if I’ve offended you by asking the question.”
No offense taken, it’s a fair question!
I am a little wary that this is a bait set out by those who see things in RP/fiction as “promoting” something in real life. A bait set to invite the kind of anti-shippers who are looking for a way to tear me down regardless of how I respond, when all I ever want to promote is:
(And I’ll quote a relevant piece of it from @ozhawkauthor, but please read the whole post):
“Much (though not all) fandom is about shipping. There are as many possible ships as there are fans, maybe more. You may have an OTP (One True Pairing), you may have a NOTP, that pairing that makes you want to barf at the very thought of its existence.
It’s not up to you to police ships or to determine what other people are allowed to ship. Just because you find that one particular ship problematic or disgusting, does not mean that other people are not allowed to explore its possibilities in their fanworks.
You are free to create contrarian content, to write meta about why a particular ship is repulsive, to discuss it endlessly on your private blog with like-minded persons.
It is not appropriate to harass creators about their ships, it is not appropriate to demand they do not create any more fanworks about those ships, or that they create fanwork only in a manner that you deem appropriate.
These three laws add up to the following:
You are not paying for fanworks content, and you have no rights to it other than to choose to consume it, or not consume it. If you do choose to consume it, do not then attack the creator if it wasn’t to your taste. That’s the height of bad manners.
Be courteous in fandom. It makes the whole experience better for all of us.”
I want to make it very clear that I’m answering this as someone who supports exploring dark themes and taboo topics in fiction/RP. As long as you are not violating real living person’s rights, or invading any real living person’s space*, then you are doing nothing wrong.
I’ve been blocked. I try to tag for things that can be triggering/upsetting to others, but I will not self-censor to appease everyone, so I absolutely support ppl unfollowing/blocking me if what I post makes them uncomfortable.
*Posting your fic/RP with the appropriate warning tags is a form of respecting others’ space and rights. If they don’t like your writing, they can block you, too. Their dashboard is their responsibility.
“I want to do a thread, but I don’t want to trigger anyone or make it look all grim and incestuous.”
I think grim and incestuous could be very interesting to explore; not every fic/RP can be a fluffy Coffee Shop AU!
Re: Concern about triggering anyone, I’ll repeat myself, it is everyone’s responsibility to curate their own fandom experience and as long as you are tagging and putting content under cuts, it is their responsibility to protect themselves. If they are incapable of that, then they should ask a trusted person to monitor their internet use.
People are triggered by many things, not just taboo and darker themed writing. This person’s triggers are Jello, Popsicles, Soup Broth, please read it! And to quote from that post, “a lot of ‘activists’ on tumblr aren’t looking to actually help anyone or make anything better: they’re sadists cruising for new victims.”
TL; DR: Anon, do what you and your partner are comfortable doing.** If RPing it as a ship squicks you both out, don’t do it. If Rping it as a ship is exciting to you both and you want to explore that taboo, go for it! Just be sure to tag it with the right warnings, and add cuts so that ppl will be protected from content they may not want to see.You can also RP privately however you like, there is no rule that says RP must be done publicly.
**If your RP partner is pressuring you to RP something you are uncomfortable with, then I would suggest not RPing that with them, and similarly, if you are pressuring your RP partner to RP something they are uncomfortable with, I would suggest not pressuring them into it.
Hit the jump for my response, cut for length, and discussion about possible incest between fictional characters.
“I’m going to be roleplaying with someone and they want to do a mother/son relationship, like not in the usual way.”
Is there a “usual way” to RP? If you’re suggesting in the ship way, it is something I’m sure exists.
Ppl RP with canon in mind, or without it.
“Like, what is the ACTUAL relationship between Gabrielle and Lestat? What is it really?”
That is a question with a ton of landmines, so I’m not going to say that they are definitely a ship or definitely not, it’s up to the individual reader/RPer to decide based on their reading of canon, or diverge from canon and write the characters however they see fit. This kind of exploration is one of many ways to engage with the characters and I see nothing wrong with canon-compliant or not canon-compliant writing, either way.
Personally, I can see both sides of the argument.
>>Not as a ship: There are some who see them purely as a mother and a son, and DEFINITELY nothing more. She does come to his rescue at the rock concert (how did she know to go to him? She has telepathy, but being his fledgling, she cannot read Lestat’s mind; she could have picked up the warnings from other vampires, or Louis might have contacted her), there are several times in canon when she asserts herself in an authoritative manner. She’s protective of him when he’s in a coma, and she slaps some sense into him when necessary. All these things can be filed under “motherly.”
It’s easy to not ship them, so I don’t really need to provide further canon evidence, they are, biologically, mother and son! There’s nothing more to add to that.
>>As a ship, Unpopular Opinion: one could argue that they can be shipped, because:
A) He becomes her maker, which changes their relationship to him being more of the “parent.”
– During the initial phase of Lestat turning Gabrielle in TVL, as he’s taking her life, he says she’s no longer his mother (to be fair, this is the kind of intimacy a vampire feels when feeding on anyone, but still, worth mentioning):
My
knowledge dimmed and flickered and there was no mother anymore,
no petty need and petty terror; she was simply who she was. She was
Gabrielle.
– Then, once she’s turned, she insists on being called by her name instead of “Mother,” so some take that as proof that she doesn’t see herself as being his mother anymore, in the mortal sense of the word.
B) The act of making a vampire is extremely intimate, it has been compared to childbirth. It’s the most intimate act a vampire can share with anyone. I believe in fanon that it creates a physiological bond between maker and fledgling, so one could extrapolate to say that the act itself could create a ship.
Note: In most maker/fledgling relationships, there is some assumption that turning the fledgling is done to bind maker and fledgling as a ship; essentially making the fledgling into a companion for the maker and the maker into a companion for the fledgling. In this case, Lestat turned Gabrielle in order to save her life, not knowing if he would even survive the act, so I don’t think this was a factor here, neither of them necessarily intending to be in a relationship together, but the physiological bond discussed above would still be a possibility.
Also worth mentioning is that he asks for her consent, as he had not been asked for consent himself, and the question is very clear:
No words again, just the silent thrust of it, and the question, more immense than could ever be put into words, Do you want to come with me now? DO YOU WANT TO COME WITH ME INTO THIS NOW? I hide nothing from you, not my ignorance, not my fear, not the simple terror that if I try I might fail. I do not even know if it is mine to give more than once, or what is the price of giving it, but I will risk this for you, and we will discover it together, whatever the mystery and the terror, just as I’ve discovered alone all else. With her whole
being she said Yes.
^This could be construed as him wanting her for a companion and her agreeing to it.
C) LET’S TALK ABOUT SEX. This is a point of debate for many fans, whether the Ricean vampires can have penetrative sex. In my opinion, in canon they cannot, and while penetrative sex is NOT A REQUIREMENT to a relationship (there are relationships where there is no penetrative sex and they are no less valid than those which do have it, in my opinion), the incestuous aspect of a Lestat/Gabrielle ship is alot less squicky for me knowing that they aren’t able to literally bone in the mortal way. Some would argue that the bloodsharing is more intimate than penetrative sex, and that’s fine, but still, being unable to literally bone is just so much less squicky, in my opinion. But ppl made fanart of essentially that and it was still very funny, to me!
Call it what you will, but the first bloodkiss shared in canon is between Lestat and Gabrielle on the night she is turned.
^^^ALL THAT SAID, I wouldn’t shoot anyone down who ships it, they are both adult fictional characters. One could argue that there is some canon evidence to support it, but canon evidence is unnecessary.
Again, Anon, do what you and your partner are comfortable doing. If RPing it as a ship squicks you both out, don’t do it. If Rping it as a ship is exciting to you both and you want to explore that taboo, go for it! Just be sure to tag it with the right warnings, and add cuts so that ppl will be protected from content they may not want to see. You can also RP privately however you like, there is no rule that says RP must be done publicly.
If your RP partner is pressuring you to RP something you are uncomfortable with, then I would suggest not RPing with them, and similarly, if you are pressuring your RP partner to RP something they are uncomfortable with, I would suggest not pressuring them into it.
^ I did this last night but now that I know it’s @i-want-my-iwtv ‘s birthday I dedicate this trash musing to you, you wonderful person. ❤ Enjoy and incestuous vampire birthday laugh.
The fact that this book exists at all is too funny, but the VC version of it is… just… besides, Gabrielle “Ew Don’t Call Me ‘Mother’” de Lioncourt is partially at fault here okay???! And Lestat, your Oedipus is showing…
btw that’s Armand in the doorway… the real reason Lestat wouldn’t let him join them…
Ok but Claudia called Armand Louis’ “companion” and it’s p obvious that Armand wants to fuck Louis and then she asks for Madeline as a “companion” and this is probably a gross thought cause Madeline is like “I want a daughter who can’t die” and Claudia is (in appearance) a child but could she be a lesbian?
I know she pines after an adult body but could it be more than that? Could she want a woman to sleep with?
This is a fascinating idea and I have thought about it myself quite a bit.
Possibly a very unpopular opinionbut: I don’t think they were sexual w/ each other in the mortal sense, but there was more to them than a mother-daughter relationship.
I don’t think Claudia’s pursuit of Madeleine was purely for a platonic mother-daughter relationship. That may have been part of it, and it was how she sold it to Louis because he couldn’t perceive Claudia as more than his daughter or as an adult trapped in a little body who would be capable of being involved in a romantic way with anyone, and she needed him to actually do the work for her since she was unable to perform the Dark Gift herself (and I do think she tried before asking him).
While it may not have been a relationship in a more conventionally romantic sense (I don’t believe they had anything sexual, in the mortal sense, going on), I do think Claudia/Madeleine was a ship of sorts, more of an emotional relationship. Claudia was the one in control, she was comparatively older and stronger in personality.
First, thank you for asking. This is something I feel is important!
Second, to those who wonder where this question came from, a while back, I reblogged this, and added the comment about squicks not being the same as triggers.
So what, you ask, is a squick?
A squick is an old fandom term for something that makes you supremely uncomfortable and you absolutely do not want to read it. It can be a trope, a ship, a concept, or just an event that happens within a fic or in canon. For me, abused animals are a definite squick. I don’t like it, and will generally avoid reading any graphic descriptions of such. (That includes tumblr gif sets and such too, people! Tag that shit, will you? Even if it has a happy ending.) Another deep, deep squick of mine is infant age play. Don’t like it, don’t get it, don’t want to think about it.
Now, neither of these things are dangerous to my mental or emotional state. I have never experienced either in my life, and they do not bring about any sort of PTSD, dissociation, or spiral of depression, anxiety, etc. They are simply things I prefer not to think about in my daily life, or read about in my escapist hobbies. Therefore, theyare not triggers. Triggers are very real, very bad things for some people, and to label things we choose not to read because we find it disturbing or gross or weird is to diminish the very real danger of actual triggers.
I love the term squick. It perfectly describes the concept without assigning any negativity to the thing you dislike, or to people who do like the thing you dislike. It is something you personally do not care for and wish to avoid, simple as that.
A “squick” was a trope or topic that made the reader deeply uncomfortable, even might cause anxiety or intense emotional reactions
Everyone’s squicks were personal and diverse, and it was considered polite to say, “sorry I can’t read this because it squicks me, but you have fun in your corner doing what you doing”
Can we bring that back and reserve “trigger” for MI people who mean “if I see this I will have flashbacks and dissociate for hours”
I wasn’t aware this concept had fallen out of fandom. Seriously, bring it back, it’s useful as hell.
Key to the concept of “squick,” as it was first explained to me lo these many years ago, is that it is not a value judgment. If I say “mpreg is gross,” that’s a negative statement about mpreg (and, by extension, about those who enjoy writing or reading about it). If I say “mpreg squicks me,” that’s a value-neutral statement about me and my emotional reactions and how they affect my enjoyment of fiction.
And, as OP says, it does not carry the implications of intensity or trauma that “trigger” does. (Although I will point out that a trigger doesn’t have to cause flashbacks or dissociation. There are people a lot better qualified than I am to talk about that.)
THIS PLEASE. I still use the word – it’s very useful. Frex: incest squicks me – no value judgement, but it is so very not my thing. Gunplay downright triggers me, and will send me into a full-on panic attack. There’s a difference.
I think we should point out that triggers can be a lot less obvious and insidious than just “causing flashbacks and panic attacks”, but I do agree. Explicit sex tends to squick me (though I don’t mind sex being present, I’ll just skip over it if there are too many details/fluids), but dubcon can trigger me pretty badly sometimes even if there are hardly any details.
Squicks are such a good filtering tool without co-opting MI terminology.
People make jokes about Twilight and what Edward does when Bella is on her period but during the vampire chronicles by Anne Rice in Memnoch the Devil that literally happens and nobody says a thing
mon dieu we are trying SO HARD to forget this… and even worse, this is probs not the first time Lestat has done it, and he’s probs not the first vampire to try it.
I-want-my-IWTV 