deleted scene of queen of the damned in which we find out roger keeps garlic in his pockets because he’s scared of lestat. also, his reaction is superb. my only question is, why the fuck was this deemed unnecessary?
Hey! Thanks for reaching out to me, I like to think I know something about this series… but I have big areas of inexpertise, in which I call forth those who who would be able to answer better, and you’ve hit one such case.
…which is bizarre, to have this kind of gray area, that I had ALWAYS considered completely resolved, that Marius was Pandora’s maker, and didn’t question it in the least, and then here YOU are, questioning it! I’m more amused that anything else, but still!
Imma take a little stab at it, anyway, and post publicly so as to open this up to anyone to reblog/comment to correct me, offer their own ideas on it.
So! Since there are newer fans these days: Spoilers ahead for Pandora.
Why is Marius and not Akasha called Pandora’s maker?
TL;DR: After rereading the scene, I think Marius is in fact Pandora’s maker, and Akasha’s infusion was post-turning (minutes later) as evidenced by Pandora’s “renewed vigor” and the fact that she’s already perceiving more before she drinks from Akasha.
Longer answer: From what I gather, yes, Akbar drained Pandora. Which in itself does not need to be done by the maker during the Dark Gift procedure. It typically IS done by the maker, but Louis, for example, was already pretty drained by the time he was going to be turned (mortals had bled him more than once to try to cure his madness, um, wasteful!). IIRC, Jesse had suffered a lot of blood loss from her injuries. So the removal of blood is not as crucial as the blood being given. Although, a vampire’s strength may partly lie in how the procedure is done. It’s not an exact science (this post goes into more about that).
HOWEVER, it made it necessary to save her life. Marius has Akbar bring her to the shrine, at which point Akbar sets her down to go beg at Akasha’s feet, as well he should. At this point! Pandora describes drinking blood, and Marius is with her, so it’s his. Then she goes into a lot of description about passing through a veil, changed perception of things, etc. So I think that there is where she was turned officially.
And then:
“The crown, she would have her crown,” I said. With astonishing vigor I walked forward towards her.
^Pandora seems pretty well revived from being on the verge of death.
Now, within the same few minutes, she does drink from Akasha, but I think this infusion is already too late to be the definitive blood to turn her. It is a powerful infusion, though. As Akasha is drawing her near, the narration says:
I felt myself, a human, held together by the intricate threads of blood which Marius had given me. I felt the design of its support. It had no weight, my body.
^So I can see where one might be confused bc Pandora is calling herself human here, but she’s also held together by Marius’ blood, and combined with the other points above, I see her as a fresh fledgling already here.
Is it possible that they both are [Pandora’s makers]?
Sure, it’s possible! It’s fiction, so you can headcanon it however you want, you can justify it in any number of ways 🙂
@roselioncourt would be a very good resource for you in terms of a multi-Maker Dark Gift exchange, bc Rose got this treatment in Prince Lestat.She would have a better answer for you about the mind-sharing situation in that case.
The act of the Dark Gift, IMO, is the vampire maker sharing their vampiric parasite with the mortal they seek to turn. Since that parasite is the same one, just spread out among all the vampires, there’s no reason why 2 or more makers couldn’t give it over in whatever quantity and produce a single fledgling together.
In Pandora’s case, I feel like the change was already taking root by the time she got the infusion from Akasha, but if you read it as being more nebulous, then sure! Marius and Akasha can both be considered Pandora’s makers!
If someone is turned by drinking from multiple vampires, would they not be able to share thoughts with any of them?
Yes, I think that’s right.
We’ve seen in canon that typically, a maker chooses their fledgling as someone they want as a companion into eternity. But sometimes fledglings are chosen just to fill up a coven, though, so the maker is not expected to have that intimate of a relationship with just another congregant in the group.
The point to having a mental block with someone who may be your companion into eternity, to my mind, is that if you could also share that aspect of the other person, you might get bored of them pretty fast, or it could be the cause of arguments, or any number of bad outcomes. Putting up this barrier creates some mystery about the other person, and makes it so you have to keep pursuing them, over the course of hundreds of years.
If there’s a multi-maker situation, I would think you’d get the barrier between them and the fledgling only, which would piss off that fledgling immensely. Can you imagine:
Vampires A, B, and C turn Vampire Y. So (assuming none of them are makers of each other) A, B, and C can all share thoughts with each other and Y is constantly left out and bitter about it. Bc they may all be sitting around some nights, and A and B will start laughing randomly and C will chastise them lightly, “Can you guys not? Y can’t hear you.” Poor Y!
I can’t remember which VC it was that AR tried to do some triangulated mind-reading, but it was complicated. Two vampires who were locked from each other could access each other through a conduit vampire who was not locked from them. Might have been Blood Canticle.
Louis feasting on a succulent rat while looking like the saddest vampire in all the world
I like this as an Aesthetic post and will reblog separately w/o commentary but you hit one of my #vampire physiology buttons, so let me add:
I gotta redo the math on how many rats Louis would have had to consume on a nightly basis. I did it once or twice and it was ridiculous. Bc if you calculate:
I) People blood needed for a fledgling vampire:
I can’t remember where it’s mentioned in TVL, but I’m p sure that Lestat killed 3 ppl/night (full grown adult humans) as a fledgling*, and that’s 1.2 to 1.5 gallons of blood per person.**
So that’s 1.35 gallons x 3 = 4.05 gallons of blood. PER NIGHT.
LIKE. I don’t think Louis was chomping on over 300 rats per night, which leads me to conclude that:
I am a lazy potato, I don’t think I could even unwrap and eat 300 candybars in one sitting, even if they were in a big pile right next to me on the couch and I had the stomach capacity for it. He had to chase each one of these things down and bite them individually, they’re not capri-sun packs (tho, those still take the effort of pushing a straw into),
So he probably didn’t want to do that 300 times a night,
So he probably didn’t actually get the volume he required on a nightly basis,
If you cut it down by half, like 150 rats, he had to have been killing SOME larger animals like dogs/cats/etc. to make up for the difference.
And that malnourishment added to the crap he was already dealing with. I’m cranky when I’m hungry. It certainly doesn’t help when you’re already under extreme duress from your daily nightly situation aside from the sustenance aspect.
ANYWAY Thank you for coming to my TedTalk on why Louis was malnourished for the first few years of his vampiring.
(Asterisked stuff under the cut.)
*1 of 2: By IWTV-era, Louis says Lestat killed 2-3 a night, a 10 yr old vampire might already need less than a fresh fledgling but *handwaves*
it’s so nebulous so idk.
“Lestat killed humans all the
time, sometimes two or three a night, sometimes more.” – IWTV
*2 of 2: Plus, consider that this might be less than for a “normal” fledgling, bc Magnus was an older vampire and *handwaves* you know, that means he himself feeds less often, so one could assume a fledgling from that vintage blood would also need less, but it’s so nebulous so idk. MEANING that Louis, being Lestat’s 3rd fledgling in less than 10 years would mean that, being of “weaker stock,” he might need more blood on a nightly basis as a fledgling.
I was digging around in my archive bc I was SURE I had ONE fanart of Louis and Claudia fighting with the European zombpire, but I can’t find it :[ Maybe someone else knows of it?
Have this, anyway, at least this creature doesn’t have to waste money on lipstick, no lips!: [X]
[I’m re-reading the original trilogy (IWTV, TVL, QoTD), and I was wondering if any of the later books ever talk about the revenant Louis meets in Transylvania with Claudia? Is it ever explained? What do you think caused it?]
I don’t think those European zombpires
are ever explicitly explained in the first 3 books or mentioned in later canon (except in a vague way in TVL by Armand and Marius, quotes further down this post). I might be wrong. If they are mentioned in canon again, I don’t think it was explained what they are :-
TL;DR: The Dark Gift is not an exact science. Your theory could be right! Personally, I don’t think the zombpires share the same origin story as the conscious vampires in VC. Some fans think AR included the
zombpires
as a way to sort of low-key slam the older vampire mythos, since her vampires are SOOO much better… with no issues with crucifixes, having reflections, etc.!
I don’t think we know enough about the zombpires to say definitively how they’re made, so it’s kind of up for grabs in that sense. However each reader sees it! Your theory about the mortals closing their minds during the Dark Trick could be the answer!
If a mortal was deliberately closing their mind to a vampire intent on turning them, thus locking the vampiric parasite out of their head/memories… that could be a reason for the mortal MIND not accepting the vampiric parasite, resulting in THE BODY turning, but NOT the mind, the mortal LOSING their mind to madness, having lost control of their body, thus, zombpire. Quite possible! Would random mortals know how to do this? Could be an unconscious defense mechanism? Maybe!
Hit the jump for more on this, cut for length and/or spoilers.
[My personal theory is that when a vampire makes someone with their mind closed (the way we know some can do), it results in a revenant, as all the making-scenes in the series describe sharing memories and emotions; it seems pretty vital!]
That’s possible, in VC context, closing one’s mind is smtg you do to protect your mind from being read by others, and it takes practice and skill. Talamasca members seem trained to do it.
Refusing the Dark Gift or accepting it, a strong will to live does seem to be a necessary element. Even the vampires who were turned against their will (Lestat, Marius, etc.) actively refused it right up until their last breaths, but that shows a strong will to live, not a closed-off mind. Just in IWTV:
Lestat tells Louis to be still and listen for their blood flow, keep his consciousness during the process: “It is your consciousness, your will, which must keep you alive.‘”
Learning from this, Louis tells Madeleine to keep her will to live, “" `Hold fast to me when I take you,’ I said to her, seeing her eyes grow wide, her mouth open. `And when the swoon is strongest, listen all the harder for the beating of my heart. Hold and say over and over,“ I will live. ” ‘”
And other Dark Gift scenes have some variations on that, I think.
In IWTV, Claudia is fascinated by the European zombpires, tries to puzzle them out, she’s considering how much blood needs to be exchanged and how strong the heart of the mortal is:
“But Claudia’s waking thoughts were of a far more practical nature. Over and over, she had me recount that night in the hotel in New Orleans when she’d become a vampire, and over and over she searched the process for some clue to why these things we met in the country graveyards had no mind.
… ” `After all, what does it take to make those creatures?’ she went on. `Those vagabond monsters? How many drops of your blood intermingled with a man’s blood … and what kind of heart to survive that first attack?’
But how would his blood get into them? He’d have to have an open wound, idk, it seems kind of awkward to imagine Louis accidentally turning any of his victims, and it makes him super uncomfortable to talk about it with her.
Later in canon we see vampires giving drops of their blood to mortals to heal them or as a sensual gesture, and those mortals aren’t given enough to turn them, so that little isn’t enough to make a zombpire.
Claudia seems to think it’s really about the strength of the heart of the victim:
“ `That pale-faced Emily, that miserable Englishman …’ she said, oblivious to the flicker of pain in my face. `Their hearts were nothing, and it was the fear of death as much as the drawing of blood that killed them. The idea killed them. But what of the hearts that survive? Are you sure you haven’t fathered a league of monsters who, from time to time, struggled vainly and instinctively to follow in your footsteps? What was their life span; these orphans you left behind you-a day there, a week here, before the sun burnt them to ashes or some mortal victim cut them down?’
^This seems to fit in line with the needing a strong will to live.
The Children of Darkness chose their fledglings with care, and even then it’s unpredictable. Armand in TVL:
But let Armand understand here also that the effect of the Dark Trick is unpredictable, even when passed on by the very young vampire and with all due care. For reasons no one knows, some mortals when Born to Darkness become as powerful as Titans, others may be no more than corpses that move. That is why mortals must be chosen with skill. Those with great passion and indomitable will should be avoided as well as those who have none.
Marius confirms this, still in TVL:
But no matter, only so many children can be made by one in a century. And new offspring will be weak. However, this is not necessarily a bad thing. The rule of the old covens had wisdom in it that strength should come with time. And then again, there is the old truth: you might make titans or imbeciles, no one knows why or how.
Nicolas might have become such a zombpire, the way he was barely functional as a fledgling at first.
By midnight it was clear that [Nicolas] would not speak or answer to any voice, or move of his own volition. He remained still and expressionless in the places to which he was taken. If the death pained him he gave no sign. If the new vision delighted him, he kept it to himself. Not even the thirst moved him. And it was Gabrielle who, after studying him quietly for hours, took him in hand, cleaning him and putting new clothes on him. – TVL
^But he does move when prodded and Lestat thinks Gabrielle can telepathically communicate with him, which makes him more functional than the European zombpires. Lestat is finally able to rouse him with the violin, so was Nicolas just refusing to talk, etc, or was he really unable? We don’t know.
@discoblight said: (( On the topic of vampire babies- Baby Jenks was pregnant (well, miscarrying) while she was made into a vampire, and it seems only she became vampiric! So I think your headcanon is correct. The body would either expel or absorb.
^Thank you, I forgot about this! Right, that was why Baby Jenks was dying:
[…and just started wondering if Anne Rice has ever addressed what would happen if a pregnant human was made into a vampire?]
Lestat does have a dream about going back to the Auvergne and turning his whole family into vampires, infants included D-: Other than that, no other mention in canon and not in any interview or book signing I’ve heard of. Maybe my followers know? Interesting question!
My thoughts on it under the cut in case of too gorey for some ppl. But in short, I don’t think that the baby would become a vampire, bc it REALLY couldn’t fend for itself. Claudia was a child but at least she could had mental capacity, could talk, was ambulatory, and had teeth that could be transformed into fangs.
(I don’t think I’ve seen any vampire babies in any other media EXCEPT for the one in Twilight, she had rapid growth or smtg? It was confusing.)
Hit the jump for more, possibly squicky thoughts, but no graphics.
“She’d been bleeding to death, the doctor had done it to her all right, the baby was gone and all, but she was going to die too, he’d cut something in there, and she was so high on heroin she didn’t give a damn.” – QOTD
@superhiki said: But it would be kinda cool for a due mother and child to be turned and for the both of them to more or less be a super powerful unit of some fashion…. mom super physical and baby a mind gift
That could be awesome and terrifying… I don’t think it’s been done before! it reminds me of Krang from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles…
Lol he would be the BIGGEST crybaby about that! He’d probably think of himself as deformed in some way and need even more cuddling and ego-stroking to get over it.
Considering vampire physiology, some things are “corrected” by the Dark Gift. All of their senses become enhanced. Gabrielle got a nice rack lift.
It won’t regrow some missing parts, like eyes (Maharet), a leg (Flavius), or a cut-out tongue (Mekare). I’m not sure as to whether vision would be corrected.
Lestat didn’t mention his vision being an issue, and he would have needed good vision to be a good hunter as a mortal, maybe not 20/20, but good enough. It’s interesting to consider, tho!
…And then, he did lose an eye at one point, and I like to headcanon that even though he got it back, that eye was never quite the same.
I-want-my-IWTV 