I’m going to be roleplaying with someone and they want to do a mother/son relationship, like not in the usual way. Like, what is the ACTUAL relationship between Gabrielle and Lestat? What is it really? I want to do a thread, but I don’t want to trigger anyone or make it look all grim and incestuous. And I sincerely apologize if I’ve offended you by asking the question. I just dunno.

[By the way, I usually answer things with a relevant fanart/image/gif, but in this case, I think it’s too serious a topic for that.]

  • “And I sincerely apologize if I’ve offended you by asking the question.”

No offense taken, it’s a fair question! 

I am a little wary that this is a bait set out by those who see things in RP/fiction as “promoting” something in real life. A bait set to invite the kind of anti-shippers who are looking for a way to tear me down regardless of how I respond, when all I ever want to promote is:

The 3 Laws of Fandom.

(And I’ll quote a relevant piece of it from @ozhawkauthor, but please read the whole post):

“Much (though not all) fandom is about shipping. There are as many possible ships as there are fans, maybe more. You may have an OTP (One True Pairing), you may have a NOTP, that pairing that makes you want to barf at the very thought of its existence.

It’s not up to you to police ships or to determine what other people are allowed to ship. Just because you find that one particular ship problematic or disgusting, does not mean that other people are not allowed to explore its possibilities in their fanworks.

You are free to create contrarian content, to write meta about why a particular ship is repulsive, to discuss it endlessly on your private blog with like-minded persons.

It is not appropriate to harass creators about their ships, it is not appropriate to demand they do not create any more fanworks about those ships, or that they create fanwork only in a manner that you deem appropriate.

These three laws add up to the following:

You are not paying for fanworks content, and you have no rights to it other than to choose to consume it, or not consume it. If you do choose to consume it, do not then attack the creator if it wasn’t to your taste. That’s the height of bad manners.

Be courteous in fandom. It makes the whole experience better for all of us.”

I want to make it very clear that I’m answering this as someone who supports exploring dark themes and taboo topics in fiction/RP. As long as you are not violating real living person’s rights, or invading any real living person’s space*, then you are doing nothing wrong. 

I’ve been blocked. I try to tag for things that can be triggering/upsetting to others, but I will not self-censor to appease everyone, so I absolutely support ppl unfollowing/blocking me if what I post makes them uncomfortable.

*Posting your fic/RP with the appropriate warning tags is a form of respecting others’ space and rights. If they don’t like your writing, they can block you, too. Their dashboard is their responsibility.

  • “I want to do a thread, but I don’t want to trigger anyone or make it look all grim and incestuous.” 

I think grim and incestuous could be very interesting to explore; not every fic/RP can be a fluffy Coffee Shop AU! 

Re: Concern about triggering anyone, I’ll repeat myself, it is everyone’s responsibility to curate their own fandom experience and as long as you are tagging and putting content under cuts, it is their responsibility to protect themselves. If they are incapable of that, then they should ask a trusted person to monitor their internet use. 

People are triggered by many things, not just taboo and darker themed writing. This person’s triggers are Jello, Popsicles, Soup Broth, please read it! And to quote from that post, “a lot of ‘activists’ on tumblr aren’t looking to actually help anyone or make anything better: they’re sadists cruising for new victims.”

TL; DR: Anon, do what you and your partner are comfortable doing.** If RPing it as a ship squicks you both out, don’t do it. If Rping it as a ship is exciting to you both and you want to explore that taboo, go for it! Just be sure to tag it with the right warnings, and add cuts so that ppl will be protected from content they may not want to see. You can also RP privately however you like, there is no rule that says RP must be done publicly. 

**If your RP partner is pressuring you to RP something you are uncomfortable with, then I would suggest not RPing that with them, and similarly, if you are pressuring your RP partner to RP something they are uncomfortable with, I would suggest not pressuring them into it. 

Hit the jump for my response, cut for length, and discussion about possible incest between fictional characters.


  • “I’m going to be roleplaying with someone and they want to do a mother/son relationship, like not in the usual way.”

Is there a “usual way” to RP? If you’re suggesting in the ship way, it is something I’m sure exists.

Ppl RP with canon in mind, or without it. 

  • “Like, what is the ACTUAL relationship between Gabrielle and Lestat? What is it really?”

That is a question with a ton of landmines, so I’m not going to say that they are definitely a ship or definitely not, it’s up to the individual reader/RPer to decide based on their reading of canon, or diverge from canon and write the characters however they see fit. This kind of exploration is one of many ways to engage with the characters and I see nothing wrong with canon-compliant or not canon-compliant writing, either way.

Personally, I can see both sides of the argument. 

>>Not as a ship: There are some who see them purely as a mother and a son, and DEFINITELY nothing more. She does come to his rescue at the rock concert (how did she know to go to him? She has telepathy, but being his fledgling, she cannot read Lestat’s mind; she could have picked up the warnings from other vampires, or Louis might have contacted her), there are several times in canon when she asserts herself in an authoritative manner. She’s protective of him when he’s in a coma, and she slaps some sense into him when necessary. All these things can be filed under “motherly.”

It’s easy to not ship them, so I don’t really need to provide further canon evidence, they are, biologically, mother and son! There’s nothing more to add to that.


>>As a ship, Unpopular Opinion: one could argue that they can be shipped, because:

A) He becomes her maker, which changes their relationship to him being more of the “parent.” 

– During the initial phase of Lestat turning Gabrielle in TVL, as he’s taking her life, he says she’s no longer his mother (to be fair, this is the kind of intimacy a vampire feels when feeding on anyone, but still, worth mentioning):

My
knowledge dimmed and flickered and there was no mother anymore,
no petty need and petty terror; she was simply who she was. She was
Gabrielle.

– Then, once she’s turned, she insists on being called by her name instead of “Mother,” so some take that as proof that she doesn’t see herself as being his mother anymore, in the mortal sense of the word. 

B) The act of making a vampire is extremely intimate, it has been compared to childbirth. It’s the most intimate act a vampire can share with anyone. I believe in fanon that it creates a physiological bond between maker and fledgling, so one could extrapolate to say that the act itself could create a ship. 

Note: In most maker/fledgling relationships, there is some assumption that turning the fledgling is done to bind maker and fledgling as a ship; essentially making the fledgling into a companion for the maker and the maker into a companion for the fledgling. In this case, Lestat turned Gabrielle in order to save her life, not knowing if he would even survive the act, so I don’t think this was a factor here, neither of them necessarily intending to be in a relationship together, but the physiological bond discussed above would still be a possibility.

Also worth mentioning is that he asks for her consent, as he had not been asked for consent himself, and the question is very clear:

No words again, just the silent thrust of it, and the question, more immense than could ever be put into words, Do you want to come with me now? DO YOU WANT TO COME WITH ME INTO THIS NOW? I hide nothing from you, not my ignorance, not my fear, not the simple terror that if I try I might fail. I do not even know if it is mine to give more than once, or what is the price of giving it, but I will risk this for you, and we will discover it together, whatever the mystery and the terror, just as I’ve discovered alone all else. With her whole
being she said Yes.

^This could be construed as him wanting her for a companion and her agreeing to it. 

C) LET’S TALK ABOUT SEX. This is a point of debate for many fans, whether the Ricean vampires can have penetrative sex. In my opinion, in canon they cannot, and while penetrative sex is NOT A REQUIREMENT to a relationship (there are relationships where there is no penetrative sex and they are no less valid than those which do have it, in my opinion), the incestuous aspect of a Lestat/Gabrielle ship is alot less squicky for me knowing that they aren’t able to literally bone in the mortal way. Some would argue that the bloodsharing is more intimate than penetrative sex, and that’s fine, but still, being unable to literally bone is just so much less squicky, in my opinion. But ppl made fanart of essentially that and it was still very funny, to me! 

Call it what you will, but the first bloodkiss shared in canon is between Lestat and Gabrielle on the night she is turned.


^^^ALL THAT SAID, I wouldn’t shoot anyone down who ships it, they are both adult fictional characters. One could argue that there is some canon evidence to support it, but canon evidence is unnecessary. 

Again, Anon, do what you and your partner are comfortable doing. If RPing it as a ship squicks you both out, don’t do it. If Rping it as a ship is exciting to you both and you want to explore that taboo, go for it! Just be sure to tag it with the right warnings, and add cuts so that ppl will be protected from content they may not want to see. You can also RP privately however you like, there is no rule that says RP must be done publicly. 

If your RP partner is pressuring you to RP something you are uncomfortable with, then I would suggest not RPing with them, and similarly, if you are pressuring your RP partner to RP something they are uncomfortable with, I would suggest not pressuring them into it. 

Hey, remember a few months ago when Anne had that attack of Shingles and couldn’t write? That was Nature trying to stop PLROA.

People Of the Page w/ no sense of humor:

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People Of the Page w/ a sense of humor:

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People Off the Page w/ a sense of humor:

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People Off the Page w/ no sense of humor:

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People confused about their spot on the spectrum:

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What if Claudia wasn’t killed by the Parisian coven. Would Louis leave her for Armand anyways? Would she and Madeleine be happy together? Bc I feel like her searching for answers was her equivalent of teenage years, she was angry with the world. But towards the end she has accepted that not all her questions have answers and she seems less frustrated with her condition, for me this is when she reaches adulthood. My poor baby didn’t have the oportunity to leave her own life and be genuinely happy

-My poor baby didn’t have the oportunity to leave her own life and be genuinely happy- 

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Actually, in the first version of IWTV, Claudia wasn’t killed off by the Parisian coven (from the Vampire Companion):

“In the first version of [IWTV], Claudia eventually goes off with three vampire brothers whom she meets in Paris. She does not die. As such, it was as if Rice had attempted to give her daughter a form of immortality. Rice, however, experienced psychological problems that cleared up only after she had rewritten the ending – by killing off Claudia and taking Louis through an experience of intense grieving. This version was much more cathartic for Rice.”

One could say that killing her off for the sake of Louis’ development was harsh, and it is known as the Stuffed into the Fridge trope. Just bc it’s a trope doesn’t make it any less effective, tho! 

“A character is killed off in a particularly gruesome manner and left to be found just to offend or insult someone, or to cause someone serious anguish. The usual victims are those who matter to the hero, specifically best buddies, love interests, and sidekicks.”

-What if Claudia wasn’t killed by the Parisian coven. Would Louis leave her for Armand anyways?-

That was his intention, that she was satisfied with her new companion and that he would still see them, still communicate with her. You don’t go through that kind of relationship (I think the word “beloved” in movie!IWTV was perfect, bc they’re closer to eachother than those in a brother-sister or father-daughter relationship). 

Louis always wanted to see Claudia happy and satisfied, and he beat himself up a lot for his failures in that. When it became clear that he was torn between her and Armand, it was Claudia who brought Madeleine into the picture and it was only after a lot of argument (and Armand’s influence, which Armand admitted to later) that Louis gave in to Claudia’s request to turn Madeleine for Claudia.

Louis and Claudia’s last real conversation in IWTV together was about this (under the cut, for length, abbreviated here), and you can see that they’re both not thrilled with the separation but that it has to happen.

Claudia: But do you
truly understand what you are choosing in Armand?

Louis: It’s meant to be. It’s almost
that sort of direction… He alone can give me the strength to be
what I am. I can’t continue to live divided and consumed with misery.
Either I go with him, or I die. 
And it’s something else, which is
irrational and unexplainable and which satisfies only me…

Claudia: Which is?

Louis: That I love him

Claudia: No doubt you do, but then, you could love even me.

Louis: Claudia, Claudia.

Claudia: I only hope that when you have need of me, you can find me… That I can get back to you… I’ve hurt you so often,
I’ve caused you so much pain.
‘ 

-Would she and Madeleine be happy together?-

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[^X from Claudia’s Story]

Possibly a very unpopular opinion but: I don’t think Madeleine and Claudia were sexual w/ each other in the mortal sense, but there was more to them than a mother-daughter relationship. So Yes, I think she and Madeleine could have been happy together in a way that was impossible for Claudia and Louis.

I don’t think Claudia’s pursuit of Madeleine was purely for a platonic mother-daughter relationship. That may have been part of it, and it was how she sold it to Louis because he couldn’t perceive Claudia as more than his daughter or as an adult trapped in a little body who would be capable of being involved in a romantic way with anyone, and she needed him to actually do the work for her since she was unable to perform the Dark Gift herself (and I do think she tried before asking him).  

While it may not have been a relationship in a more conventionally romantic sense (I don’t believe they had anything sexual, in the mortal sense, going on), I do think Claudia/Madeleine was a ship of sorts, more of an emotional relationship. Claudia was the one in control, she was comparatively older and stronger in personality.

Hit the jump, cut for length.


-Bc I feel like her searching for answers was her equivalent of teenage years, she was angry with the world.-  

She had every right to be angry! Not their intention, but her “parents” condemned her to an eternity of body dysmorphia and being perceived as smtg she was not, potentially worse than death. Similar things happen in real life, too, ppl are born with syndromes that cause them to appear “disfigured” or “underdeveloped” to society at large, and they too, may be angry with the world or their own parents for that. Teenagers going through puberty AND adults long past that phase can have body horror and be frustrated that their external physical vessels do not match who they are inside. From what I understand of it, there are many forms of body dysphoria.

Even w/o the body issues, she still would have sought answers to the questions Louis had asked. He didn’t seem to have any body dysphoria but he had plenty of questions beyond any equivalent of a teenage phase. They were both extremely frustrated at the lack of answers.

-But towards the end she has accepted that not all her questions have answers and she seems less frustrated with her condition, for me this is when she reaches adulthood.-

That’s life! Not all of our questions will be answered, but she at least seemed to have achieved some inner peace with not having the answers.

She may have reached adulthood long before that, when she decided to assassinate Lestat for his treatment of her. She wanted revenge on the world, so she took it out on the one who seemed most responsible for her existence. That seems like an adult decision to me, to kill the person who gave you life. But then, she may not have been physiologically capable of ever “reaching adulthood” since the human brain doesn’t finish development until around 20-25 yrs old [X].

Louis and Claudia’s

last real conversation in IWTV together:

“`But do you truly understand what you are choosing in Armand?’ [Claudia said.] I turned away from her. There was something stubborn and mysterious in her dislike of [Armand], in her failure to understand him. She would say again that he wished her death, which I did not believe. She didn’t realize what I realized: he could not want her death, because I didn’t want it. But how could I explain this to her without sounding pompous and blind in my love of him. `It’s meant to be. It’s almost that sort of direction,’ I said, as if it were just coming clear to me under the pressure of her doubts. `He alone can give me the strength to be what I am. I can’t continue to live divided and consumed with misery. Either I go with him, or I die,’ I said. `And it’s something else, which is irrational and unexplainable and which satisfies only me… ‘ “

`Which is?’ she asked.

`That I love him,’ I said.

`No doubt you do,’ she mused. `But then, you could love even me.’ ”

`Claudia, Claudia.’ I held her close to me, and felt her weight on my knee. She drew up close to my chest. “

`I only hope that when you have need of me, you can find me …’ she whispered. `That I can get back to you … I’ve hurt you so often, I’ve caused you so much pain.’ Her words trailed off. She was resting still against me. I felt her weight, thinking, In a little while, I won’t have her anymore. I want now simply to hold her. There has always been such pleasure in that simple thing. Her weight against me, this hand resting against my neck.

IWTV thoughts

murdereratthematinee:

Ok but Claudia called Armand Louis’ “companion” and it’s p obvious that Armand wants to fuck Louis and then she asks for Madeline as a “companion” and this is probably a gross thought cause Madeline is like “I want a daughter who can’t die” and Claudia is (in appearance) a child but could she be a lesbian?

I know she pines after an adult body but could it be more than that? Could she want a woman to sleep with?

This is a fascinating idea and I have thought about it myself quite a bit. 

Possibly a very unpopular opinion but: I don’t think they were sexual w/ each other in the mortal sense, but there was more to them than a mother-daughter relationship.

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[X From Claudia’s Story]

I don’t think Claudia’s pursuit of Madeleine was purely for a platonic mother-daughter relationship. That may have been part of it, and it was how she sold it to Louis because he couldn’t perceive Claudia as more than his daughter or as an adult trapped in a little body who would be capable of being involved in a romantic way with anyone, and she needed him to actually do the work for her since she was unable to perform the Dark Gift herself (and I do think she tried before asking him).  

While it may not have been a relationship in a more conventionally romantic sense (I don’t believe they had anything sexual, in the mortal sense, going on), I do think Claudia/Madeleine was a ship of sorts, more of an emotional relationship. Claudia was the one in control, she was comparatively older and stronger in personality.