//ooc; This has been sitting in my inbox for a month, I’m not a history buff and not into historical politics, and I did ask around, but it’s tough to answer. What would he remember about that? Vampires supposedly have perfect memories. What are his opinions? VC does not get very political.
“By day I almost forgot the vision of the inn, and the darkness. Unless, of course, … I happened upon a public execution in the place de Grave.
And I was always happening upon a public execution in the place de Grave.
I’d wander out of the square shuddering, almost moaning. I could become obsessed with it if not distracted.” – The Vampire Lestat (p.1, ch.7)
He wasn’t a vampire at that point, but clearly those public executions had an impact on him bc he brings it up later as a vampire. Even though he causes death often, death as spectacle is different. Still, he doesn’t suggest that they shouldn’t have done it.
The French Revolution took his brothers, their wives, and all his nieces and nephews, and as much as he despised his brothers, he still took care of his father until the end of his life in New Orleans, and he still had a dream that he turned his whole family into vampires, so what that means to you as a reader is up for interpretation.
Anyone can comment. What do you think any of the vampires’ opinion is/was of the atrocities that took place during the French Revolution?
characters in canon, so take every discussion about him and his treatment of Armand/Amadeo with a huge truckload of salt and patience, bc there are some strong opinions out there.
Marius knew about Armand (known then as “Amadeo”) and Lord Harlech. He might have been jealous, but didn’t say so in TVA, only that he was worried for Amadeo’s safety:
“He has quite the reputation, your English lord, slamming down his knife on the board in any tavern he chooses. Do you have to consort with common murderers? You have a nonpareil here when it comes to those who take life.”
The main difference I see is that Marius gave Amadeo the autonomy and independence to make his own choices in this regard, and Amadeo was more rebelling against Marius in his fling w/ Lord Harlech than furthering his sexcapades education. It turned out that LH was bonkers, got all weird and overly possessive and wanted to kidnap Amadeo… it was a bad breakup.
[X,@cloudsinvenice said: I’m thinking Armand when he fights Lord Harlech, personally.]
There’s some debate about why Marius sent Amadeo around for all those sexual escapades and I always read it as part of Marius’ full-rounded education deal that he wanted Amadeo to have; to have experienced all the good things in life that can be humanly experienced, and to show him that physical intimacy doesn’t have to be the horrible experience it was when Amadeo was kept in the brothels. Not necessarily the best cure for a sexually abused child/teenager but Marius was probably thinking of it as exposure therapy:
Exposure therapy is a technique in behavior therapy used to treat anxiety disorders. It involves the exposure of the patient to the feared object or context without any danger, in order to overcome their anxiety and/or distress. Procedurally it is similar to the fear extinction paradigm in rodent work.
-My poor baby didn’t have the oportunity to leave her own life and be genuinely happy-
Actually, in the first version of IWTV, Claudia wasn’t killed off by the Parisian coven (from the Vampire Companion):
“In the first version of [IWTV], Claudia eventually goes off with three vampire brothers whom she meets in Paris. She does not die. As such, it was as if Rice had attempted to give her daughter a form of immortality. Rice, however, experienced psychological problems that cleared up only after she had rewritten the ending – by killing off Claudia and taking Louis through an experience of intense grieving. This version was much more cathartic for Rice.”
One could say that killing her off for the sake of Louis’ development was harsh, and it is known as the Stuffed into the Fridge trope. Just bc it’s a trope doesn’t make it any less effective, tho!
“A character is killed off in a particularly gruesome manner and left to be found just to offend or insult someone, or to cause someone serious anguish. The usual victims are those who matter to the hero, specifically best buddies, love interests, and sidekicks.”
-What if Claudia wasn’t killed by the Parisian coven. Would Louis leave her for Armand anyways?-
That was his intention, that she was satisfied with her new companion and that he would still see them, still communicate with her. You don’t go through that kind of relationship (I think the word “beloved” in movie!IWTV was perfect, bc they’re closer to eachother than those in a brother-sister or father-daughter relationship).
Louis always wanted to see Claudia happy and satisfied, and he beat himself up a lot for his failures in that. When it became clear that he was torn between her and Armand, it was Claudia who brought Madeleine into the picture and it was only after a lot of argument (and Armand’s influence, which Armand admitted to later) that Louis gave in to Claudia’s request to turn Madeleine for Claudia.
Louis and Claudia’s last real conversation in IWTV together was about this (under the cut, for length, abbreviated here), and you can see that they’re both not thrilled with the separation but that it has to happen.
Claudia: But do you
truly understand what you are choosing in Armand?
Louis: It’s meant to be. It’s almost
that sort of direction… He alone can give me the strength to be
what I am. I can’t continue to live divided and consumed with misery.
Either I go with him, or I die. And it’s something else, which is
irrational and unexplainable and which satisfies only me…
Claudia: Which is?
Louis: That I love him
Claudia: No doubt you do, but then, you could love even me.
Louis: Claudia, Claudia.
Claudia: I only hope that when you have need of me, you can find me… That I can get back to you…I’ve hurt you so often,
I’ve caused you so much pain.‘
Possibly a very unpopular opinionbut: I don’t think Madeleine and Claudia were sexual w/ each other in the mortal sense, but there was more to them than a mother-daughter relationship. So Yes, I think she and Madeleine could have been happy together in a way that was impossible for Claudia and Louis.
I don’t think Claudia’s pursuit of Madeleine was purely for a platonic mother-daughter relationship. That may have been part of it, and it was how she sold it to Louis because he couldn’t perceive Claudia as more than his daughter or as an adult trapped in a little body who would be capable of being involved in a romantic way with anyone, and she needed him to actually do the work for her since she was unable to perform the Dark Gift herself (and I do think she tried before asking him).
While it may not have been a relationship in a more conventionally romantic sense (I don’t believe they had anything sexual, in the mortal sense, going on), I do think Claudia/Madeleine was a ship of sorts, more of an emotional relationship. Claudia was the one in control, she was comparatively older and stronger in personality.
Hit the jump, cut for length.
-Bc I feel like her searching for answers was her equivalent of teenage years, she was angry with the world.-
She had every right to be angry! Not their intention, but her “parents” condemned her to an eternity of body dysmorphia and being perceived as smtg she was not, potentially worse than death. Similar things happen in real life, too, ppl are born with syndromes that cause them to appear “disfigured” or “underdeveloped” to society at large, and they too, may be angry with the world or their own parents for that. Teenagers going through puberty AND adults long past that phase can have body horror and be frustrated that their external physical vessels do not match who they are inside. From what I understand of it, there are many forms of body dysphoria.
Even w/o the body issues, she still would have sought answers to the questions Louis had asked. He didn’t seem to have any body dysphoria but he had plenty of questions beyond any equivalent of a teenage phase. They were both extremely frustrated at the lack of answers.
-But towards the end she has accepted that not all her questions have answers and she seems less frustrated with her condition, for me this is when she reaches adulthood.-
That’s life! Not all of our questions will be answered, but she at least seemed to have achieved some inner peace with not having the answers.
She may have reached adulthood long before that, when she decided to assassinate Lestat for his treatment of her. She wanted revenge on the world, so she took it out on the one who seemed most responsible for her existence. That seems like an adult decision to me, to kill the person who gave you life. But then, she may not have been physiologically capable of ever “reaching adulthood” since the human brain doesn’t finish development until around 20-25 yrs old [X].
Louis and Claudia’s
last real conversation in IWTV together:
“`But do you truly understand what you are choosing in Armand?’ [Claudia said.] I turned away from her. There was something stubborn and mysterious in her dislike of [Armand], in her failure to understand him. She would say again that he wished her death, which I did not believe. She didn’t realize what I realized: he could not want her death, because I didn’t want it. But how could I explain this to her without sounding pompous and blind in my love of him. `It’s meant to be. It’s almost that sort of direction,’ I said, as if it were just coming clear to me under the pressure of her doubts. `He alone can give me the strength to be what I am. I can’t continue to live divided and consumed with misery. Either I go with him, or I die,’ I said. `And it’s something else, which is irrational and unexplainable and which satisfies only me… ‘ “
`Which is?’ she asked.
`That I love him,’ I said.
`No doubt you do,’ she mused. `But then, you could love even me.’ ”
`Claudia, Claudia.’ I held her close to me, and felt her weight on my knee. She drew up close to my chest. “
`I only hope that when you have need of me, you can find me …’ she whispered. `That I can get back to you … I’ve hurt you so often, I’ve caused you so much pain.’ Her words trailed off. She was resting still against me. I felt her weight, thinking, In a little while, I won’t have her anymore. I want now simply to hold her. There has always been such pleasure in that simple thing. Her weight against me, this hand resting against my neck.
That’s good then! Be angry. Fiction is not always out there to make you feel good. Sometimes it’s meant to push buttons, and in this case, it may have been smtg AR intended to explore, that some ppl really think/thought that Akasha’s idea could be a good path to peace.
Side note, this is so relevant right now bc in the Real World:
Unfortunately we are again faced with ppl who are consumed by their own ideology, with this new political regime and those that voted it in.
How are we going to deal with it? Are we going to let them steamroll everyone who opposes? How active can/should we be? We all have to ask that of ourselves bc fiction has very much become reality. And it’s nowhere near as pretty as Akasha.
So anyway, back to Akasha… Not all characters introduced by an author are ENDORSED by the author, the author is telling a story, maybe suggesting what might happen if we/the readers assumed, for example, that “all wars are started by men and therefore they should be removed from the equation for peace on earth.” AR shows us the narrow-mindedness of such an idea and that YES, Akasha is “herself is an example that women can do terrible things too.” Akasha probably knows that but bc it doesn’t fit with her own ideology, she is most likely ignoring it. If she doesn’t know that, she is refusing to learn it, which is just as bad, if not worse.
(Now we have a US President-Elect who’s saying that “it’s X, Y, Z group of ppl who start all the wars and have to be stopped.” SOUND FAMILIAR?)
[^X Lestat and his awesome girlfriend Akasha by @devmin-art]
BTW tho, did Akasha really believe in this or did she just want to be righteous and have a place in the world? When this initially happened, the Twins told her there was no way to undo it, and that she should kill herself to rid the world of the accident that she was, but like many living (unliving?) things, she didn’t want to die. She wanted to find a way to be righteous and have a purpose, and don’t we all? She constructed a religion around herself back when she was first turned, and she felt that it worked out really well for her. Of course, it was easier to manipulate ppl back when religion seemed to have more of the answers to all of our questions than science did.
and I feel like the others characters don’t try enough to make her understand this when they’re trying to convice her to stop.
^Keep in mind that the coven were all pretty frustrated at their failed attempts to reason with her, most of their arguments were met with personal attacks or just slippery gaslighting… and they were just on the edge of freaking out bc she can explode most of them with her mind ;A;
Lestat:
Dazed, she looked at me. I could feel death breathing on my face, death close as it had been years and
years ago when the wolves tracked me into the frozen forest, and I couldn’t reach up high enough for the
limbs of the barren trees.
The other characters did try to make her understand, but when someone is consumed by their own ideology, sometimes the only tactic that will work is backing off the issue itself and asking them to take more time to consider their chosen course of action, which may have given the coven more time to educate her or find some common ground on which to build some dialogue… which is what they were all doing.
Maharet says:
“Time,” Maharet said. “Maybe that is what we are asking for. Time. And that is what you have to give.”
…“You have meditated in silence for centuries upon your solutions. What is another hundred years? Surely
you will not dispute that the last century on this earth was beyond all prediction or imagining-and that the
technological advances of that century can conceivably bring food and shelter and health to all the peoples
of the earth.“
That’s a great quote, anon, and a very good question *u*
[^by @garama and the illustration is more appropriate than you think; they are probably slinging insults back and forth telepathically!]
This quote was actually Armand talking to Lestat about Gabrielle and Nicolas (Lestat had not even met Louis and Claudia yet), and how foolish it was for Lestat to expect either of them to actually want to stay with him. AS IF?! We as readers also add in the fact that it could apply to Louis and Claudia, since we already know that further down the line, yes, they will choose to leave their maker.
Armand’s point is that no matter carefully chosen, every fledgling will inevitably leave their maker. The quote actually begins with: “Each time the death and the awakening will ravage the mortal spirit,” and then he goes into more reasons why the fledglings and makers end up parting. Gabrielle left because she wanted something Lestat couldn’t give her. Nicolas left for a number of reasons, some variation of madness could be part of it. Armand speaks with the knowledge of seeing many fledglings made, and he might even feel like he would not have chosen to stay with his own maker forever, if he had had the choice.
When Armand says “And the veil will always come down between you,” that’s about the fact that the telepathic connection that can exist between vampires and mortals
(vampire!Lestat could communicate telepathically with mortal!Gabrielle before she was turned)
will be lost with the Dark Gift*
Armand had it with mortal!Daniel.
It’s a deeply intimate connection and many makers and fledglings mourn its loss.
Armand is basically saying that you can turn however many mortals into vampires you want, but due to the act of turning a new vampire, you can’t keep them as a companion. The best and most true companionship is in finding other vampires who were turned by others. There are many reasons for finding a prefabricated vampire to love, but a major one is that the telepathic connection with them will still be possible!
*At least one fic writer, @vampchronfic, has L/L finding ways to chip away and even dissolve this limitation, and it’s bound them closer together, unlike any other ship in VC.
Your question… is it a question? I’m so confused. You say Marius is Lestat’s maker and maybe that’s a typo, or maybe you accept movie!QOTD as canon, either way, it’s not my headcanon.
Lestat gave Louis the choice to be a vampire, because when Lestat was forced by Magnus into being a vampire, that was essentially a form of rape. Lestat tells Nicolas (TVL):
“When it was offered me I said no. I tell you I said no. With my last breath, I said no.”
The ramifications of rape are many and I won’t go into detail here, but it had an enormous impact on Lestat’s well-being, and in his relationships with everyone in his afterlife.
Lestat wanted Louis to choose it, to WANT to be a vampire, he wanted it to be consensual, to spare Louis the damage of what Lestat had to deal with.
When Lestat teases Louis about his “whining,” it’s partly out of frustration; he saw in Louis a kindred spirit, and in book!IWTV he explained that killing was part of the deal, and Louis accepted the Dark Gift but then, fledgling!Louis was aghast at taking human life! In later canon, Louis’ “whining” is actually just putting up any rational resistance at Lestat’s ideas for adventure.
VC itself was born from Lestat not having a choice when Magnus forced him into vampirism, in the sense that none of the books would have been written if Lestat had chosen NOT to become a vampire. If Lestat had died the night that Magnus kidnapped him, or been released and died later, as a mortal, he wouldn’t have turned any fledglings, Louis wouldn’t have been a vampire in the 1970s to be interviewed, Louis probably would have succeeded in killing himself over his remorse about the death of his brother… there would be no IWTV, no TVL,…
But Armand would still have existed, as would Marius, and others who existed long before Lestat’s mortal birth. Maybe VC would have been about them.
There is so much discussion of this packed into VC that there is no simple answer, this is up to every reader to decide for every character. It fluctuates over time, too.
I headcanon that currently none of the VC vampires we’re familiar with (not including PL) believe in a God/Gods, but I would say that they’re all open to proof, should there be a higher power(s). Most, if not all of them, have a healthy respect for voo doo, witchcraft, and other supernatural practices/beliefs.
Louis was Catholic as a mortal and he did struggle w/ whether, by nature of being a creature that exists by killing ppl (in direct violation of the commandment specifically about not killing ppl) he was therefore from Satan, and Lestat didn’t give him any answers on that:
“Because, you see, though Lestat had never said anything about devils or hell to me, I believed I was damned when I went over to him, just as Judas must have believed it when he put the noose around his neck.”
Hit the jump for more, cut for length.
Armand doesn’t have answers for Louis either, except to say that if Louis is from Satan, then he’s from God by default, too. Armand says: “all Satan’s power comes from God and that Satan is simply God’s child, and that we are God’s children also.”). Armand goes on to give what became the monologue in movie!IWTV about God not existing:
” `Then God does not exist … you have no knowledge of His existence?’ “‘None,’ [Armand] said. ” `No knowledge!’ I said it again, unafraid of my simplicity, my miserable human pain. “ `None.’ ” `And no vampire here has discourse with God or with the devil!’ “ `No vampire that I’ve ever known,’ he said, musing, the fire dancing in his eyes. `And as far as I know today, after four hundred years, I am the oldest living vampire in the world.’
IIRC, Louis doesn’t talk about religion after that exchange, and AR doesn’t have him talk about it in later books, so we really don’t know what he thinks except that he goes on killing ppl so he must have reconciled it within himself. He and Lestat both like to hang out in churches, tho, so there’s that!
Armand and Lestat go through different phases of believing in God, and neither Lestat nor the others are really 100% sure about what he experienced in MtD (aka “Lestat Goes to Heaven and Hell for an Intense Job Interview, All He Gets Is This Crappy T-Shirt Veronica’s Veil”). But he does try to follow Marius’ example in slaying the evildoer, since they need to kill anyway.
Louis is indiscriminate, it’s whoever crosses his path, he doesn’t want the responsibility of judging someone’s goodness/badness, it’s more of a Savage Garden approach.
Claudia went to Europe looking for other vampires, but she was probably also hoping they had some magic/treatment that could make her body into an adult’s, Lestat dreams about it in TVL:
I dreamed of Louis and Claudia and that we were together. Claudia had grown miraculously into a beautiful woman, and she said, laughing, “You see this is what I came to Europe to discover, how to do this!”
They do care, and they probably would have intense debates about the candidates, but they wouldn’t advocate for one or the other. You can check out Lestat’s answer to this question here.
I think Louis put their stance very eloquently in QOTD (my emphasis added):
“It’s their world, not ours,” he said humbly. “Surely we forfeited it when we lost our mortality. We have no right now to interrupt their struggle. If we do we rob them of victories that have cost them too much! Even in the last hundred years their progress has been miraculous; they have righted wrongs that mankind thought were inevitable; they have for the first time developed a concept of the true family of man.
… Don’t interfere with them. Even if they kill each other! Give them time to see this new vision realized; give the cities of the West, corrupt as they may be, time to take their ideals to a suffering and blighted world.”
Cut for length.
That was the issue that was brought up in QOTD, whether they had a responsibility to have political power and/or have influence the world or not. There was a council of sorts, and some heavy debate was had, mainly on the part of Lestat’s ultra feminist SJW girlfriend vs. literally everyone else except Lestat who mostly sat there terrified into silence and not taking sides, and it ended with the general agreement that they shouldn’t meddle in mortal affairs.
This is partly bc writing their involvement into actual historical events could be difficult if not impossible (What, did they fight in WWII? Which side? How would that even work, concealing their vampirism from their fellow soldiers??!), and partly bc AR herself wasn’t very political back in earlier canon.
(Side note: Louis and Claudia left America close to the beginning – or before? – the Civil War started, it wasn’t addressed in canon, Lestat was on his way to Paris to see Armand, and then Lestat slept through WWII…)
Even now, in the later books, AR keeps her world mostly separate from the Real World; IIRC, Hurricane Katrina was never mentioned in canon, and one would think that NOLA-branch coven founders Louis and Lestat would at least comment on that obviously devastating tragedy. At least one fanfic writer did take up the challenge of weaving in Katrina, and did it very tastefully. So it’s possible, but AR hasn’t gone there.
I-want-my-IWTV 