Give me someone who has some fucked up tastes in fiction, but is kind and respectful to real people, over someone who only ever ships the healthiest ships and stans the purest characters, but is rude and cruel to real people, any day of the week.
Your goddamn fictional preferences don’t show what kind of person you are; your actions do.
It’s not a hard concept to grasp.
All the people I’ve met who ship hardcore mindgames/ abuse/ sex-pollen/ noncon/ chan/ cross-generation/ torture fic… are absolute sweethearts who will go out of their way to help other fen, who will support others going through crises, who will tell people, “that relationship sounds abusive – here’s what you can do to get out, and if you’re not willing to give up on it, here’s the techniques you can use to claim the space you need within it.”
It’s almost like reading abusive filth about corrupt perverts gives you a sense of awareness of where the lines should be, and how important it is for people to be compassionate to each other – because we understand what kind of things can happen when people are not.
That.
I’ve had the same experience. And honestly – I’ve mentioned this before, but when I was younger, some of the most important conversations I had about what consent is or what abuse looks like came out of fandom, and specifically, discussions around pieces of fanfic. These weren’t conversations I was having at home, or with my IRL friends, and they sure as hell weren’t conversations I was getting through school.
Wow, it’s almost like reading and talking about fiction plays a crucial role in exploring ideas and moral questions. 🙂
I also know fans who are there solely for the sweetest and healthiest of fluff who are absolutely wonderful people. But the small subset who believe that anything that is not Cinnamon-Roll Pure is not just something they want to avoid, but something that should not be allowed to exist – I’m wary of those folks, specifically because of that black-and-white approach. It seems it’s a short distance from, “Your ships must be the purest of the pure, or else they are Bad,” to, “Your ships must be the purest of the pure, or else YOU are Bad.”
There’s this… phenomenon… I’ve witnessed in several fandoms, where a particular blog gets really popular within a fandom.
And suddenly that blog will start getting people literally asking them for permission to hold certain opinions. I don’t mean someone just asking “hey can I get your feelings/opinions on this subject” but “is it okay if I think/do xyz?” like some child asking their parent if they can go somewhere.
Worse, is when these blogs start taking these questions seriously and feeding them answers. Like they suddenly start believing that they truly have this authority. I mean it’s bad enough when people do this and the blogger is just like “well I have my own opinion but don’t ask me” but when they start to actually act like they can tell other people what they are “allowed” to do.
This I the creepiest fucking thing on tumblr I swear.
Why would you give some random stranger on the internet that much power over your mind? Why would you be so afraid of forming your own opinions that you have to ask someone else to give you opinions to hold?
And so often they end up with a rabble ready to crucify anyone who doesn’t do as they are told, and that’s when I really run for the hills…
It probably looks a little egotistical to reblog this post, as someone who relates to having the “particular blog gets really popular within a fandom,” but I deeply agree with this post from both sides. It has been suggested to me privately that my opinions hold sway over people and I have a responsibility to answer a certain way so that the other fans aren’t led astray, that they are so gullible that they take my every word as fact. I sincerely hope that this is not the case.
I refuse this responsibility bc that’s not the kind of blog I want to have. I don’t want anyone taking my opinions as an authority, or the Law of the Land or whatever… *~popularity~* shouldn’t give me any more authority than anyone else!
Please don’t feel like you have to literally ask anyone for permission to hold certain opinions. I’m happy to share my ideas, but they are only my ideas. I’m a random stranger on the internet! I love my followers, the interactions we’ve had, the messages you’ve sent me publicly and privately over the past few years have kept my blog alive, and I can’t thank you enough for that ❤
But! If I can just paraphrase from the above, Do not give some random stranger on the internet that much power over your mind! Don’t be so afraid of forming your own opinions that you have to ask someone else to give you opinions to hold!
Please do not become part of some random stranger on the internet’s rabble ready to crucify anyone who doesn’t do as they are told!
[By the way, I usually answer things with a relevant fanart/image/gif, but in this case, I think it’s too serious a topic for that.]
“And I sincerely apologize if I’ve offended you by asking the question.”
No offense taken, it’s a fair question!
I am a little wary that this is a bait set out by those who see things in RP/fiction as “promoting” something in real life. A bait set to invite the kind of anti-shippers who are looking for a way to tear me down regardless of how I respond, when all I ever want to promote is:
(And I’ll quote a relevant piece of it from @ozhawkauthor, but please read the whole post):
“Much (though not all) fandom is about shipping. There are as many possible ships as there are fans, maybe more. You may have an OTP (One True Pairing), you may have a NOTP, that pairing that makes you want to barf at the very thought of its existence.
It’s not up to you to police ships or to determine what other people are allowed to ship. Just because you find that one particular ship problematic or disgusting, does not mean that other people are not allowed to explore its possibilities in their fanworks.
You are free to create contrarian content, to write meta about why a particular ship is repulsive, to discuss it endlessly on your private blog with like-minded persons.
It is not appropriate to harass creators about their ships, it is not appropriate to demand they do not create any more fanworks about those ships, or that they create fanwork only in a manner that you deem appropriate.
These three laws add up to the following:
You are not paying for fanworks content, and you have no rights to it other than to choose to consume it, or not consume it. If you do choose to consume it, do not then attack the creator if it wasn’t to your taste. That’s the height of bad manners.
Be courteous in fandom. It makes the whole experience better for all of us.”
I want to make it very clear that I’m answering this as someone who supports exploring dark themes and taboo topics in fiction/RP. As long as you are not violating real living person’s rights, or invading any real living person’s space*, then you are doing nothing wrong.
I’ve been blocked. I try to tag for things that can be triggering/upsetting to others, but I will not self-censor to appease everyone, so I absolutely support ppl unfollowing/blocking me if what I post makes them uncomfortable.
*Posting your fic/RP with the appropriate warning tags is a form of respecting others’ space and rights. If they don’t like your writing, they can block you, too. Their dashboard is their responsibility.
“I want to do a thread, but I don’t want to trigger anyone or make it look all grim and incestuous.”
I think grim and incestuous could be very interesting to explore; not every fic/RP can be a fluffy Coffee Shop AU!
Re: Concern about triggering anyone, I’ll repeat myself, it is everyone’s responsibility to curate their own fandom experience and as long as you are tagging and putting content under cuts, it is their responsibility to protect themselves. If they are incapable of that, then they should ask a trusted person to monitor their internet use.
People are triggered by many things, not just taboo and darker themed writing. This person’s triggers are Jello, Popsicles, Soup Broth, please read it! And to quote from that post, “a lot of ‘activists’ on tumblr aren’t looking to actually help anyone or make anything better: they’re sadists cruising for new victims.”
TL; DR: Anon, do what you and your partner are comfortable doing.** If RPing it as a ship squicks you both out, don’t do it. If Rping it as a ship is exciting to you both and you want to explore that taboo, go for it! Just be sure to tag it with the right warnings, and add cuts so that ppl will be protected from content they may not want to see.You can also RP privately however you like, there is no rule that says RP must be done publicly.
**If your RP partner is pressuring you to RP something you are uncomfortable with, then I would suggest not RPing that with them, and similarly, if you are pressuring your RP partner to RP something they are uncomfortable with, I would suggest not pressuring them into it.
Hit the jump for my response, cut for length, and discussion about possible incest between fictional characters.
“I’m going to be roleplaying with someone and they want to do a mother/son relationship, like not in the usual way.”
Is there a “usual way” to RP? If you’re suggesting in the ship way, it is something I’m sure exists.
Ppl RP with canon in mind, or without it.
“Like, what is the ACTUAL relationship between Gabrielle and Lestat? What is it really?”
That is a question with a ton of landmines, so I’m not going to say that they are definitely a ship or definitely not, it’s up to the individual reader/RPer to decide based on their reading of canon, or diverge from canon and write the characters however they see fit. This kind of exploration is one of many ways to engage with the characters and I see nothing wrong with canon-compliant or not canon-compliant writing, either way.
Personally, I can see both sides of the argument.
>>Not as a ship: There are some who see them purely as a mother and a son, and DEFINITELY nothing more. She does come to his rescue at the rock concert (how did she know to go to him? She has telepathy, but being his fledgling, she cannot read Lestat’s mind; she could have picked up the warnings from other vampires, or Louis might have contacted her), there are several times in canon when she asserts herself in an authoritative manner. She’s protective of him when he’s in a coma, and she slaps some sense into him when necessary. All these things can be filed under “motherly.”
It’s easy to not ship them, so I don’t really need to provide further canon evidence, they are, biologically, mother and son! There’s nothing more to add to that.
>>As a ship, Unpopular Opinion: one could argue that they can be shipped, because:
A) He becomes her maker, which changes their relationship to him being more of the “parent.”
– During the initial phase of Lestat turning Gabrielle in TVL, as he’s taking her life, he says she’s no longer his mother (to be fair, this is the kind of intimacy a vampire feels when feeding on anyone, but still, worth mentioning):
My
knowledge dimmed and flickered and there was no mother anymore,
no petty need and petty terror; she was simply who she was. She was
Gabrielle.
– Then, once she’s turned, she insists on being called by her name instead of “Mother,” so some take that as proof that she doesn’t see herself as being his mother anymore, in the mortal sense of the word.
B) The act of making a vampire is extremely intimate, it has been compared to childbirth. It’s the most intimate act a vampire can share with anyone. I believe in fanon that it creates a physiological bond between maker and fledgling, so one could extrapolate to say that the act itself could create a ship.
Note: In most maker/fledgling relationships, there is some assumption that turning the fledgling is done to bind maker and fledgling as a ship; essentially making the fledgling into a companion for the maker and the maker into a companion for the fledgling. In this case, Lestat turned Gabrielle in order to save her life, not knowing if he would even survive the act, so I don’t think this was a factor here, neither of them necessarily intending to be in a relationship together, but the physiological bond discussed above would still be a possibility.
Also worth mentioning is that he asks for her consent, as he had not been asked for consent himself, and the question is very clear:
No words again, just the silent thrust of it, and the question, more immense than could ever be put into words, Do you want to come with me now? DO YOU WANT TO COME WITH ME INTO THIS NOW? I hide nothing from you, not my ignorance, not my fear, not the simple terror that if I try I might fail. I do not even know if it is mine to give more than once, or what is the price of giving it, but I will risk this for you, and we will discover it together, whatever the mystery and the terror, just as I’ve discovered alone all else. With her whole
being she said Yes.
^This could be construed as him wanting her for a companion and her agreeing to it.
C) LET’S TALK ABOUT SEX. This is a point of debate for many fans, whether the Ricean vampires can have penetrative sex. In my opinion, in canon they cannot, and while penetrative sex is NOT A REQUIREMENT to a relationship (there are relationships where there is no penetrative sex and they are no less valid than those which do have it, in my opinion), the incestuous aspect of a Lestat/Gabrielle ship is alot less squicky for me knowing that they aren’t able to literally bone in the mortal way. Some would argue that the bloodsharing is more intimate than penetrative sex, and that’s fine, but still, being unable to literally bone is just so much less squicky, in my opinion. But ppl made fanart of essentially that and it was still very funny, to me!
Call it what you will, but the first bloodkiss shared in canon is between Lestat and Gabrielle on the night she is turned.
^^^ALL THAT SAID, I wouldn’t shoot anyone down who ships it, they are both adult fictional characters. One could argue that there is some canon evidence to support it, but canon evidence is unnecessary.
Again, Anon, do what you and your partner are comfortable doing. If RPing it as a ship squicks you both out, don’t do it. If Rping it as a ship is exciting to you both and you want to explore that taboo, go for it! Just be sure to tag it with the right warnings, and add cuts so that ppl will be protected from content they may not want to see. You can also RP privately however you like, there is no rule that says RP must be done publicly.
If your RP partner is pressuring you to RP something you are uncomfortable with, then I would suggest not RPing with them, and similarly, if you are pressuring your RP partner to RP something they are uncomfortable with, I would suggest not pressuring them into it.
Your headcanon is your headcanon. The characters in your mind are what they are, and nobody is trying to take them away from you. Think of the Good Omens TV series as a stage play: for six full hours, actors are going to be portraying the roles of Crowley and Aziraphale, Shadwell and Madame Tracy, Newt and Anathema, Adam, Pepper, Wensleydale and Brian and the rest. Will they look like the people in your head? The ones you’ve been drawing and writing about and imagining for (in some cases) almost 30 years?
Probably not. Which is fine.
The people in your head and your drawings are still there, and still real and still true. I’ve seen drawings of hundreds of different Aziraphales over the years, all with different faces and body-shapes, different hair and skin, and would never have thought to tell anyone who drew or loved them that that wasn’t what Aziraphale looked like. (And a couple of years after we wrote it, I was amused to realise that the Aziraphale in my head looked nothing like the Aziraphale in Terry’s head.) I’ve loved every instance of Good Omens Cosplay I’ve seen, and in no case did I ever think anyone was doing it wrong: they were all Aziraphales and Crowleys, and it was always a delight.
Good Omens has been unillustrated for 27 years, which means that each of you gets to make up your own look for the characters, your own backstories, your own ideas about how they will behave.
The TV version is being made with love and with faithfulness to the story. It’s got material and characters in it that Terry and I had discussed over the years, (some of it from what we would have done it there had been a sequel). Writing it has taken up the greater part of my last three years. You might like it – I really hope you will – but you don’t have to. You can start watching it, decide that you prefer the thing in your head, and stop watching it. (I never saw the last Lord of the Rings movie, because I liked the thing in my head too much.)
Remember we are making this with love.
And that your own personal headCrowleys and headAziraphales and headFourHorsemen and headThem and headHastur and headLigur and headSisterMary and all the rest are yours, and safe, and nobody is ever going to take them away from you.
Stop condemning and judging people for their fucking ships. What you like to read about does not reflect what you care about, approve of, or want for yourself in real life.
Can people be skeevy about ships? Certainly. Are there fandom trends that reflect the racism and sexism of society at large? Definitely! Does harassing individual fans for what they like help any of that? No.
Promote the ships you like, instead of using them as a stick to beat other people with.
Meanwhile, people have been into fucked up ships forever, and somehow the internet hasn’t burned down in an inferno of abuse apologism.
And do you realise what you’re saying, when you talk about young girls and women being drawn into abusive relationships because of the fic they read, or the art they draw, or the meta they write?
You’re telling them it’s their fault.
THAT. LAST. PART. I’ve been saying this for ages. Women and girls do not have to be protected from their own fantasies, and telling women that they are putting themselves at risk for liking “impure” ships or fictional relationship dynamics is 100% victim-blaming bullshit that is also pretty fucking condescending.
Me, a humble fic farmer, tending her plot of land: neighbor john said there was a shipwar starting just over the hills. what do you think Ma, do you think we’ll ever see a shipwar?
Ma, clutching her apron to her chest: oh dear, I hope not!
Pa, sitting in his rocking chair and smoking his pipe: hmph! there’s always been shipwars and there will always be shipwars. you just keep your nose out of it and mind your own business. we ain’t got no business messing around in shipwars. now step to it! i want that field of headcanons and plot twists plowed by morning! and keep those plot bunnies from getting at the smut, we can’t afford anymore WIPs!
^ I did this last night but now that I know it’s @i-want-my-iwtv ‘s birthday I dedicate this trash musing to you, you wonderful person. ❤ Enjoy and incestuous vampire birthday laugh.
The fact that this book exists at all is too funny, but the VC version of it is… just… besides, Gabrielle “Ew Don’t Call Me ‘Mother’” de Lioncourt is partially at fault here okay???! And Lestat, your Oedipus is showing…
btw that’s Armand in the doorway… the real reason Lestat wouldn’t let him join them…
(Lestat looks a little uncomfortable with Armand tryna put a lil tongue into it)
and also a little doodle:
(( Also I’m bad at drawing people kissing pls forgive me;; ))
And I feel like writing a fic to go along with these pictures so give me a while to do that and I’ll post it later :0 !! I haven’t written anything in a while……….
I-want-my-IWTV 