them: why do you have so many gay ships?
me: because the female characters are so poorly and/or problematically written, because there sometimes aren’t any female characters at all, and because while female emotional fluency is seen as an expected norm, society has taught me to romanticize male emotional fluency as exceptional and special and rare. now pls leave me alone so that I can live in my imaginary world where men actually talk about feelings
I understand your confusion! To be honest, your message is extremely difficult to answer, there is plenty of evidence that they are not lovers, as you point out in your message: they “absolutely hate and insult each other” during IWTV (and in later books, too), and yes, Claudia tries to kill Lestat 😛 Those aren’t signs of love.
In my reading of canon, they do get together, but it is always a fragile “together.” They meet before Lestat’s concert, they are together at the end of QOTD, etc., there are many times in canon when they are physically together but, it is usually thick with the tension of whether it can last ;A; Perhaps that’s another reason why the L/L shippers make so many fanworks; we just don’t get enough L/L explicitly in canon.
When Anne Rice wrote IWTV, Lestat was clearly the main antagonist (other antagonists included Santiago, the theatre vampires, etc.). Lestat was intended to antagonize Louis. At the end of IWTV, one can say that Louis has won; even if he might not be all rainbows-and-sparkles-happy about life, Louis ends the book at least as a functionally independent vampire, whereas Lestat is miserable and broken, seemingly having difficulty even hunting for mortal victims on his own (dependent on a young “nurse vampire” bringing him a victim). There is disagreement between Lestat and Louis whether that scene even happened, but, whether it did or not, by the end of IWTV-era, it seems like Louis has overcome his abuser/monster and is the stronger one of the two of them.
Still, L/L did explicitly share some intimate moments in IWTV, when Lestat fed on Louis, and sharing the intimacy of the Dark Gift (the most intimate experience for vampires), and beyond than that, Lestat tells the reader in TVL to “Read between the lines.” A relationship does not need to be explicitly stated to exist, it is up to each individual reader to decide whether they want to ship those characters or not based on their reading of the story.
Personally, I ship
Louis/Lestat and thankfully, I have found plenty of other Louis/Lestat shippers in the fandom! Anyone is welcome to reblog/comment on this post as to why they ship Louis/Lestat ❤
TL:DR; Throughout canon Lestat pines for Louis QUITE A LOT. It is my personal belief that most of this pining is to “make up for” all the awful times during the years in IWTV when Lestat abused his fledglings, when they fought back, when Lestat was frustrated at being unable to give them the truth of their vampire nature by sharing his knowledge with them. To make up for the scenes that were not explicitly described in IWTV.
1) Here’s Lestat talking about Louis, from TVL:
I fell fatally in love with Louis, a young dark-haired bourgeois planter… Louis gained a hold over me far more powerful than Nicolas had ever had…
And why should I bother to tell of the times he came to me in wretched anxiety, begging me never to leave him, of the times we walked together and talked together, acted Shakespeare together for Claudia’s amusement, or went arm in arm to hunt the riverfront taverns or to waltz with the dark-skinned beauties of the celebrated quadroon balls?
^You could say he lied about any of this, we do have unreliable narrators. That’s up to you as a reader to decide if you believe Lestat’s account on this or not.
2) More of Lestat talking about Louis in TVL:
I kept glancing at him and away from him, as if his green eyes were hurting me. In modern parlance he was a laser beam. Deadly and delicate he seemed. His victims had always loved him.
And I had always loved him, hadn’t I, no matter what happened, and how strong could love grow if you had eternity to nourish it, and it took only these few moments in time to renew its momentum, its heat?
^This seems, again, to be very clearly stating that Lestat loves Louis. Whether that love is reciprocated is up to the reader’s interpretation.
3) In the immortal words of @high-fructose-lesbianism: “Now matter how hard you ship Louis and Lestat you will never ship Louis and Lestat as hard as Lestat does.” [X] Part of why it’s such a tough ship is that AR just does not let us have much in terms of explicit canon fluff of them! It mostly happens off-screen. Which is where fanworks steps in to satisfy that need ;] I have some more of this kind of thing mixed into my #nobody ships Louis and Lestat harder than Lestat ships Louis and Lestat tag.
“…but if I did have to choose, [my one companion for all eternity] would be Louis. My longest most enduring friendship and love affair in this world was with Louis. And though his limitations can be maddening, they can also be as inspiring to me as his virtues… the best choices we make are not always the wise choices. Sometimes they are intensely emotional choices. And I’ve always had a deep Romantic respect for emotion. My love for Louis transcends wisdom. And I may need the pain as much as the consolation that an eternal relationship with Louis would involve.“
6) Anne Rice gets this question on a regular basis. I don’t know if her answer below convinced the commenter, Romeo Naghdi, that Lestat is “totally bisexual, totally omni sexual” (which was another term for bisexual some years ago, IIRC). To be honest, I think when she answers these types of questions she is answering so that others can see her statement, even if the commenter might remain steadfast in their own opinion.
[^X 6/26/2015] ^Personally, I don’t know how Romeo Naghdi (and others who share his opinion) read the same books that I/we did, but I don’t care what he thinks of Lestat’s sexuality, and I would encourage you all to go with Anne Rice on this. She made her statement and then let it go.
I am not attempting to erase any queer representation in mentioning that we have these people who headcanon Lestat as straight. I included it only to give the context to AR’s comment.
I hope that helps, Anon! Again, anyone is welcome to reblog/comment on this as to why they ship Louis/Lestat, even though they “absolutely hate and insult each other” during IWTV!
I got this message from someone a few days ago and responded privately, but I thought this was good tumblr etiquette to share. I will be tagging any shipping stuff related to Armand and Marius as “#mariusxarmand” so that it can be blocked.
It’s absolutely totally okay to ask for a ship to be blocked. I can’t accommodate all tagging requests (like this pomegranate post that someone wanted OP to tag as gore, and I see both sides of the issue, but I am human and can’t tag everything), this one seemed very reasonable.
I won’t ask others to tag shipping stuff related to Armand and Marius as “#mariusxarmand” (you can if you want to) but it would be nice if you could comment/reblog this with any ship names you do tag, maybe it would be helpful for this anon or others to block other ship’s shipping stuff they do not want on their dash.
It’s okay to have fictional characters do problematic stuff. Really, it is. Fictional characters are there to tell a story; not to be perfect paragons of virtue.
“Yeah!” some people will say. “It’s fine as long as you show that it’s problematic!”
And I’ll say: No. You don’t need to always do that either. We can’t expect writers to point out every moral misstep a character makes.
It’s okay to have characters do something problematic, and it’s okay to assume that the readers can see why it’s problematic on their own.
The number of notes on this that say “No, you have to moralize, because readers are stupid!” is… disheartening. So what? We have to treat everyone like toddlers just in case someone happens to get the wrong idea about some fiction? If random fanfic (or any other semi-anonymous online content, for that matter) is a major determiner in someone’s life, they already have bigger problems than any fic could affect.
How about this: if someone pays me to write, they’ll get a say in what I write. As long as I’m writing for my own pleasure for free, I will write what I want.
Another suggestion: if you need moral guidance, stop reading fan fiction and turn to victorian children’s literature! Very helpful in encouraging good morals in the young!
Race. *sigh* I keep revisiting this ask, and each time I do I feel more and more like I don’t want to engage as there are so many landmines.
I didn’t get into fandom for landmines, and so I maneuver around them, and the reason I’m answering this at all is for those who are thinking about topics like these but are too afraid to respond for fear of the landmines.
I’m responding bc I feel like if sharing my perspective could make just one person feel better about this, then it’s worth the risk and worth my time and effort.
I’m up for Daniel being Black in the adaptation. His race isn’t mentioned specifically in the books, and we need diversity in an ocean of white Eurotrash fops! I don’t see any reason why not and Bryan cast the lead in American Gods as black so I’m hopeful to see some good changes in Anne’s work. What do you think?
^Here’s one person who wants to cast Daniel as POC/Black, and they seemed to be accentuating the positive. They want diversity. They compared him to the lead from American Gods being cast as black. I don’t watch that show so I don’t know if that character is the “butt of crazy jokes” or only has value being attached to another character, but it seems to me, at face value, that this Anon thinks that Daniel being cast as POC/Black is parallel with the lead of another series being cast as POC/Black, this Anon states that as being a good change.
I answered that Anon more in depth with some historical context, so you can look at that response, but basically, Anne is open to casting POC for VC characters. I’m open to it! I trust in whoever is running the adaptation to produce it in a tasteful and respectful way, and updating it to be inspiring and satisfying to a wider audience would be great, however that happens.
TL:DR; I think people do care about Daniel, and would love to see a character that they care about, like Daniel, be cast as a POC as a good thing. Daniel is not perfect (none of them are! Except Mojo) but he has many positive traits: he’s clever, resourceful, sassy, charismatic, capable of loving and being loved in return. I think people would love for the adaptation to show that those traits can absolutely be found in POC, too. We do need more positive representation like that.
Reminder that this is a fandom blog for entertainment and I am not here to make/agree/disagree with political statements that are potentially inflammatory. Not my focus. But I will address your points to some extent.
Speaking to the connotations of race, it’s interesting that people in the fandom want to make Daniel the black character
I haven’t seen an enormous amount of people in the fandom wanting this change, I think one blog is dedicated to it? I’ve mostly seen interest and support for casting a POC as Akasha, since that casting in movie!QOTD was pretty widely praised. I see people talking about considering casting other characters as POC, but I don’t see anyone other than Akasha as being the main character of interest for that.
One could criticize that choice as being bad, as it could imply that POC/Black women are villains, bc she was a villain in that movie. That’s not the message I took from that casting choice, but one could easily argue that that was a message being sent (and therefore, Bad representation, even though she was cast as a character in a position of power).
when for so many years, a goodly bulk of this fandom has only attributive Daniel as having any value to the story when he’s attached to Armand, or made him the butt of crazy jokes.
“for so many years” covers decades of time, these books have been around since 1976. Reflecting back to when I started in this in 1993 (which was already almost 20 yrs late), I can’t say that any character has escaped being the butt of crazy jokes in all this time, and with the nature of shipping, many of the characters seem to only have value when attached to other characters.
Re: shipping: it seems like ships are more prevalent in fanworks than fanworks portraying the characters on their own, and so it may give the impression that fandom “prefers the characters as part of a ship,” but personally, I think of shipping as the collision of 2 (or more) characters, to see how they’ll interact: in happiness, sadness, anger, all the different ways! Writing about a ship can allow a fanartist/writer/etc. to explore how each member of the ship will react in
actions/words/etc.
to the other’s actions/words/etc. So I can see how you might get the impression that “Daniel only has value as being attached to Armand,” but I think it’s more about how Daniel presents himself when he is with Armand, that’s what the fanworks are exploring.
Along those lines, however you interpret that ship, the bulk of Daniel’s post-IWTV “screentime” was in QOTD, with Armand, and after that, Daniel doesn’t get much action in canon until the more recent books (but even then, not as much as in QOTD). As the fandom does tend to ship Daniel with Armand, and plenty of it that I’ve seen (especially in fanart) is somewhat fluffy, again, I can see why you might get the impression that “he’s only valued when attached to Armand,” but really, I think Daniel/Armand shippers are fascinated with the dynamic of that ship. It’s rarely fluffy in canon. So some of them make fanworks for wish fulfillment, and that’s valid.
Personally, I don’t think Daniel’s only value to the story is when he’s attached to Armand, but again, he spends most of his time in canon with Armand, maybe that’s why the fandom doesn’t tend to write him on his own time separately.
Re: being the “butt of crazy jokes”: As a side note, when we joke about characters, that’s not to say that that’s always a negative act. Look, we’re currently dragging Lestat bc he said IN CANON that he loved being called a “slut,” which is really more of a layered commentary on shaming people for enjoying sex/intimacy, and he refuses to be shamed for it, he’ll turn around and take it as a compliment instead 😉
I’ve been in this fandom for over 20 years and I don’t think Daniel has gotten the worst treatment in those terms, it seems to me that there have been waves of love/interest/disdain/mockery of most of the main (and side) characters at different points in time, and from different groups of fans. So that may be your experience, and that’s absolutely valid, but I haven’t seen it that way. Of all the characters, I think Lestat probably gets the worst of being the butt of crazy jokes and he likes it bc bad attention is better than no attention.
It seems awfully suspicious to me that the “best’ character” to be cast as a POC is the one so many have considered the throw-away one. If that doesn’t speak volumes, I don’t know what does.
I’m sorry, but I have to disagree here, too. I wouldn’t say he’s a throw-away character for the whole fandom. There are Daniel RPers. As I’ve mentioned, it happens that he doesn’t have a lot of action in canon other than in books 1 (as just the interviewer, but it counts!) and 3, so the fandom does not have as much canon to work with as they do for other characters.
And again, re: the fandom choosing him as “the best character” to be cast as a POC, that seems to be Akasha, from what I’ve seen.
The reason I love Only Lovers Left Alive is it shows that a character (Adam) can be severely mentally ill, in this case depressed and suicidal, and still be seen as lovable and capable of being loved and loving in return without being “cured” of their mental illness, and that a mentally ill character can have other attributes aside from being mentally ill while still showing the impact being mentally ill has on his personality.
Adam from OLLA is an extremely important character to me you guys.
Similarly, I think people would love to see a character that they care about, like Daniel, be cast as a POC as being POC is often portrayed negatively in media. Fans of a POC being cast as Daniel would want (I’m paraphrasing from above):
to see
Daniel
showing that a character can be POC, in this case black, and still be seen as lovable and capable of being loved and loving in return, and that a POC character can have other attributes aside from being POC while still showing the impact being POC has on his personality.
Daniel Molloy from VC is an extremely important character to me you guys.
This might come as a surprise but it’s ok to not like a ship, or even hate it viciously for no real reason. You don’t need to come up with reasons why it’s morally inferior to what you like, or call anyone who likes it a criminal or anything like it. Not everything you hate is “evil”, sometimes you just plain don’t like a thing and that’s ok
Winning the villain over to your side is a power fantasy.
Like, a really big one, too.
Social emphasis has it that men should value strength,
aggression, and violence, and women should value kindness, empathy, and
community. But really, anyone who has
learned to prefer social success to might/aggression is going to favour a
strategy where you can make your enemies into allies of some kind, over one
where you just kill them. As a display of dominance, killing is overly
simplistic. And it’s also hard to ignore the reality that luck usually has more
to do with most fights than actual strength.
So, many people vastly prefer stories where the villains don’t
die, but instead, get won over by the hero. It’s also a much more prevalent
power fantasy among women than it is among men, because women are often taught
that violence on our parts is inherently distasteful and ignoble. If you can’t defeat your enemies by putting a
bullet in their heads, then what could
be more satisfying than convincing that enemy to come and fight other people on
your behalf instead?
This is a major component to why villains end up as popular
shipping material. I honestly don’t think it’s the ‘bad boy’ impulse, or some
branch of misogyny, or at least, not in a majority of cases. It’s a total and
sincere power fantasy. Someone going ‘all I care about is myself and all I want
to do is DESTROY THE WORLD MWAHAHAHA’ meeting you and then being like ‘oh no
wait I also want to please you and spend time with you and I want that so much
that I will now give up those other things’ implies an intoxicating level of
charisma.
Of course, like most power fantasies, it pays to tread
carefully with it. Because real life rarely accommodates such things, and as
with some muscle-bound hero easily lifting a house over his head, being able to
take a wholly selfish being and convert them into a devoted companion is… unlikely to happen outside of fiction.
For a lot of reasons.
However, I bring it up because I am C O N S T A N T L Y
seeing the compulsion to ship characters with villains misattributed to A)
agreeing with the villains, B) some form of self-hatred, C) a noble impulse
towards compassion and understanding, or D) sheer stupidity, and really… it’s
just another power fantasy. Wonder Woman punches a tank. Tony Stark buys an
entire island. Storm calls down a lightning strike. Batman outwits all his clever foes. And some seemingly random,
ordinary human woman convinces Lex Luthor to chill out and stop trying to kill
Superman. It’s all power, displayed
in fantastical proportions.
(Which isn’t to say that you have to like it or think that
every such relationship is good and healthy, gods no, but once you realize that
everyone’s just pretending to be the Superman of relationships, it’s easier to just go ‘oh that’s what you’re after’ and… y’know… fret less.)
It’s no huge secret why I’m into ships where the guy has to confront the fact that he’s super duper wrong and the girl (in various ways) helps make him see that.
With a lot of men generally, but specifically with some in my life, that’s never ever going to happen. That’s why, for me, a fulfilling narrative where a guy realizes and confronts his mistakes is better than the best PWP, tbh.
I-want-my-IWTV 