//ooc; This has been sitting in my inbox for a month, I’m not a history buff and not into historical politics, and I did ask around, but it’s tough to answer. What would he remember about that? Vampires supposedly have perfect memories. What are his opinions? VC does not get very political.
“By day I almost forgot the vision of the inn, and the darkness. Unless, of course, … I happened upon a public execution in the place de Grave.
And I was always happening upon a public execution in the place de Grave.
I’d wander out of the square shuddering, almost moaning. I could become obsessed with it if not distracted.” – The Vampire Lestat (p.1, ch.7)
He wasn’t a vampire at that point, but clearly those public executions had an impact on him bc he brings it up later as a vampire. Even though he causes death often, death as spectacle is different. Still, he doesn’t suggest that they shouldn’t have done it.
The French Revolution took his brothers, their wives, and all his nieces and nephews, and as much as he despised his brothers, he still took care of his father until the end of his life in New Orleans, and he still had a dream that he turned his whole family into vampires, so what that means to you as a reader is up for interpretation.
Anyone can comment. What do you think any of the vampires’ opinion is/was of the atrocities that took place during the French Revolution?
characters in canon, so take every discussion about him and his treatment of Armand/Amadeo with a huge truckload of salt and patience, bc there are some strong opinions out there.
Marius knew about Armand (known then as “Amadeo”) and Lord Harlech. He might have been jealous, but didn’t say so in TVA, only that he was worried for Amadeo’s safety:
“He has quite the reputation, your English lord, slamming down his knife on the board in any tavern he chooses. Do you have to consort with common murderers? You have a nonpareil here when it comes to those who take life.”
The main difference I see is that Marius gave Amadeo the autonomy and independence to make his own choices in this regard, and Amadeo was more rebelling against Marius in his fling w/ Lord Harlech than furthering his sexcapades education. It turned out that LH was bonkers, got all weird and overly possessive and wanted to kidnap Amadeo… it was a bad breakup.
[X,@cloudsinvenice said: I’m thinking Armand when he fights Lord Harlech, personally.]
There’s some debate about why Marius sent Amadeo around for all those sexual escapades and I always read it as part of Marius’ full-rounded education deal that he wanted Amadeo to have; to have experienced all the good things in life that can be humanly experienced, and to show him that physical intimacy doesn’t have to be the horrible experience it was when Amadeo was kept in the brothels. Not necessarily the best cure for a sexually abused child/teenager but Marius was probably thinking of it as exposure therapy:
Exposure therapy is a technique in behavior therapy used to treat anxiety disorders. It involves the exposure of the patient to the feared object or context without any danger, in order to overcome their anxiety and/or distress. Procedurally it is similar to the fear extinction paradigm in rodent work.
Just feel like repeating a few things in light of recent posts…
Fandom isn’t just escape into a fantasy world. Fandom is letting the fantasy world supplement us, bolster us, give us hope. Fandom is drawing our friends and loved ones as close as we can, even separated by massive distance, we can at least communicate with and support eachother.
Fandom can stimulate wonderful discussions even if you disagree with someone, and perhaps even enlighten you to smtg you might not have considered before! “The mind, once stretched by a new idea, never returns to its original dimensions.” – Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. (I think? Might be
Ralph Waldo Emerson… idk)
Homework assignment to everyone out there: Reach out and send a lovely message like this to someone today ❤
♛I have been doing that, haven’t I? I have a terrible track record with relationships. I have plenty of experience in what NOT to do, that’s for damn sure…
(Alright, well… there have been some wonderful relationships. I’m in a relationship now with someone who has a high tolerance for pain and almost limitless patience, thank the powers that be, but enough about Louis…)
*cracks knuckles* Well, H, this is, as they say, a goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation.
You’re going to have to put these feelings for him out of your mind and focus on your own life. You can do it. That relationship was grown by both of you, it became part of you, but it’s a severed limb now, what’s left is that eerie phantom feeling where it used to be.
Being in love is intoxicating, there is a whole science behind that apart from the emotional addiction. Being in love is fun, it’s pleasurable. Your physical and emotional attraction to your ex is probably something like what recovering drug addicts feel for the drug they’ve sworn off. Just because he is a drug, does not mean he’s loathsome. Just because you feel drawn to him does not make you weak.
The trick really is not to “think” about it. It’s not constructive to give him your mental energy. Focus on other things. Don’t replace him with another lover just to have that high of being in love again. Love yourself. Please yourself, physically and emotionally. In time, this shadow of attraction to him will fade away. Trust me.
That’s a valid opinion. But I don’t like the word “should” when it deals with fandom, even about negativity. The resistance to this book is completely understandable.
[^Louis read PLROA and this was his response to Lestat]
People judge things before they read them, people judge other people before they meet them, people judge anything that can be judged w/o experiencing them. So much judgment out there. I’m certainly not going to demand fair treatment for a book.
Just bc an author is excited about their work does not mean we can’t still judge it on its merits as a novel, and we all have our own ideas about what makes a great novel/story. Dr. Frankenstein was very excited about his creation, other people decided it was a monster.
People’s resistance to this book, specifically, is not coming out of nowhere. Those of us who have read the prior books, or have the slightest knowledge of the characters and stories, and every fan in between, there was something that drew us into VC, and from what I’m seeing, it’s nearly impossible to believe that this book is remotely part of what preceded it unless you had only read PL and/or seen movie!QOTD, in which case, I guess it must be all smooth sailing for ya.
“…The latest of the series, a follow up to 2014’s Prince Lestat, is making waves (pun intended) over the Atlantis story element (and all that goes along with that). Tying the story to characters in her third book, Queen of the Damned, Rice completely upends the myths and lore woven into the Chronicles (almost to the point of jumping the shark IMHO). The characters we love, like Lestat, Louis, Armand and others are still who they are, yet the surprises tucked into Prince Lestat and the Realms of Atlantis feel like they cheapen the fabric of the series’ mythos.”
Upending the canon myths and lore, jumping the shark, cheapening the fabric of the series’ mythos? That all sounds like something that fans would put up some resistance about. Can you blame them if they feel betrayed? If they feel like their beloved characters have been thrown into a blender w/ aliens and the lost city of Atlantis? I can’t blame them.
I don’t blame them for reacting w/ the exaggerated Tumblrand Hyperbole™ either, bc some of that is probably real emotion. Some of it is for effect, the exaggeration tends to get more notes than rational analysis. But I think it’s both.
I can empathize with the negativity. I wish I could blindly support AR in every choice she makes, but I can’t do that, either. I try not to criticize her myself bc she has given us an incredible gift already in the earlier books. I hope we can trust her to faithfully adapt them to TV/film as how they were originally written, and not try to wedge in this more recent provocative material.
-My poor baby didn’t have the oportunity to leave her own life and be genuinely happy-
Actually, in the first version of IWTV, Claudia wasn’t killed off by the Parisian coven (from the Vampire Companion):
“In the first version of [IWTV], Claudia eventually goes off with three vampire brothers whom she meets in Paris. She does not die. As such, it was as if Rice had attempted to give her daughter a form of immortality. Rice, however, experienced psychological problems that cleared up only after she had rewritten the ending – by killing off Claudia and taking Louis through an experience of intense grieving. This version was much more cathartic for Rice.”
One could say that killing her off for the sake of Louis’ development was harsh, and it is known as the Stuffed into the Fridge trope. Just bc it’s a trope doesn’t make it any less effective, tho!
“A character is killed off in a particularly gruesome manner and left to be found just to offend or insult someone, or to cause someone serious anguish. The usual victims are those who matter to the hero, specifically best buddies, love interests, and sidekicks.”
-What if Claudia wasn’t killed by the Parisian coven. Would Louis leave her for Armand anyways?-
That was his intention, that she was satisfied with her new companion and that he would still see them, still communicate with her. You don’t go through that kind of relationship (I think the word “beloved” in movie!IWTV was perfect, bc they’re closer to eachother than those in a brother-sister or father-daughter relationship).
Louis always wanted to see Claudia happy and satisfied, and he beat himself up a lot for his failures in that. When it became clear that he was torn between her and Armand, it was Claudia who brought Madeleine into the picture and it was only after a lot of argument (and Armand’s influence, which Armand admitted to later) that Louis gave in to Claudia’s request to turn Madeleine for Claudia.
Louis and Claudia’s last real conversation in IWTV together was about this (under the cut, for length, abbreviated here), and you can see that they’re both not thrilled with the separation but that it has to happen.
Claudia: But do you
truly understand what you are choosing in Armand?
Louis: It’s meant to be. It’s almost
that sort of direction… He alone can give me the strength to be
what I am. I can’t continue to live divided and consumed with misery.
Either I go with him, or I die. And it’s something else, which is
irrational and unexplainable and which satisfies only me…
Claudia: Which is?
Louis: That I love him
Claudia: No doubt you do, but then, you could love even me.
Louis: Claudia, Claudia.
Claudia: I only hope that when you have need of me, you can find me… That I can get back to you…I’ve hurt you so often,
I’ve caused you so much pain.‘
Possibly a very unpopular opinionbut: I don’t think Madeleine and Claudia were sexual w/ each other in the mortal sense, but there was more to them than a mother-daughter relationship. So Yes, I think she and Madeleine could have been happy together in a way that was impossible for Claudia and Louis.
I don’t think Claudia’s pursuit of Madeleine was purely for a platonic mother-daughter relationship. That may have been part of it, and it was how she sold it to Louis because he couldn’t perceive Claudia as more than his daughter or as an adult trapped in a little body who would be capable of being involved in a romantic way with anyone, and she needed him to actually do the work for her since she was unable to perform the Dark Gift herself (and I do think she tried before asking him).
While it may not have been a relationship in a more conventionally romantic sense (I don’t believe they had anything sexual, in the mortal sense, going on), I do think Claudia/Madeleine was a ship of sorts, more of an emotional relationship. Claudia was the one in control, she was comparatively older and stronger in personality.
Hit the jump, cut for length.
-Bc I feel like her searching for answers was her equivalent of teenage years, she was angry with the world.-
She had every right to be angry! Not their intention, but her “parents” condemned her to an eternity of body dysmorphia and being perceived as smtg she was not, potentially worse than death. Similar things happen in real life, too, ppl are born with syndromes that cause them to appear “disfigured” or “underdeveloped” to society at large, and they too, may be angry with the world or their own parents for that. Teenagers going through puberty AND adults long past that phase can have body horror and be frustrated that their external physical vessels do not match who they are inside. From what I understand of it, there are many forms of body dysphoria.
Even w/o the body issues, she still would have sought answers to the questions Louis had asked. He didn’t seem to have any body dysphoria but he had plenty of questions beyond any equivalent of a teenage phase. They were both extremely frustrated at the lack of answers.
-But towards the end she has accepted that not all her questions have answers and she seems less frustrated with her condition, for me this is when she reaches adulthood.-
That’s life! Not all of our questions will be answered, but she at least seemed to have achieved some inner peace with not having the answers.
She may have reached adulthood long before that, when she decided to assassinate Lestat for his treatment of her. She wanted revenge on the world, so she took it out on the one who seemed most responsible for her existence. That seems like an adult decision to me, to kill the person who gave you life. But then, she may not have been physiologically capable of ever “reaching adulthood” since the human brain doesn’t finish development until around 20-25 yrs old [X].
Louis and Claudia’s
last real conversation in IWTV together:
“`But do you truly understand what you are choosing in Armand?’ [Claudia said.] I turned away from her. There was something stubborn and mysterious in her dislike of [Armand], in her failure to understand him. She would say again that he wished her death, which I did not believe. She didn’t realize what I realized: he could not want her death, because I didn’t want it. But how could I explain this to her without sounding pompous and blind in my love of him. `It’s meant to be. It’s almost that sort of direction,’ I said, as if it were just coming clear to me under the pressure of her doubts. `He alone can give me the strength to be what I am. I can’t continue to live divided and consumed with misery. Either I go with him, or I die,’ I said. `And it’s something else, which is irrational and unexplainable and which satisfies only me… ‘ “
`Which is?’ she asked.
`That I love him,’ I said.
`No doubt you do,’ she mused. `But then, you could love even me.’ ”
`Claudia, Claudia.’ I held her close to me, and felt her weight on my knee. She drew up close to my chest. “
`I only hope that when you have need of me, you can find me …’ she whispered. `That I can get back to you … I’ve hurt you so often, I’ve caused you so much pain.’ Her words trailed off. She was resting still against me. I felt her weight, thinking, In a little while, I won’t have her anymore. I want now simply to hold her. There has always been such pleasure in that simple thing. Her weight against me, this hand resting against my neck.
That’s good then! Be angry. Fiction is not always out there to make you feel good. Sometimes it’s meant to push buttons, and in this case, it may have been smtg AR intended to explore, that some ppl really think/thought that Akasha’s idea could be a good path to peace.
Side note, this is so relevant right now bc in the Real World:
Unfortunately we are again faced with ppl who are consumed by their own ideology, with this new political regime and those that voted it in.
How are we going to deal with it? Are we going to let them steamroll everyone who opposes? How active can/should we be? We all have to ask that of ourselves bc fiction has very much become reality. And it’s nowhere near as pretty as Akasha.
So anyway, back to Akasha… Not all characters introduced by an author are ENDORSED by the author, the author is telling a story, maybe suggesting what might happen if we/the readers assumed, for example, that “all wars are started by men and therefore they should be removed from the equation for peace on earth.” AR shows us the narrow-mindedness of such an idea and that YES, Akasha is “herself is an example that women can do terrible things too.” Akasha probably knows that but bc it doesn’t fit with her own ideology, she is most likely ignoring it. If she doesn’t know that, she is refusing to learn it, which is just as bad, if not worse.
(Now we have a US President-Elect who’s saying that “it’s X, Y, Z group of ppl who start all the wars and have to be stopped.” SOUND FAMILIAR?)
[^X Lestat and his awesome girlfriend Akasha by @devmin-art]
BTW tho, did Akasha really believe in this or did she just want to be righteous and have a place in the world? When this initially happened, the Twins told her there was no way to undo it, and that she should kill herself to rid the world of the accident that she was, but like many living (unliving?) things, she didn’t want to die. She wanted to find a way to be righteous and have a purpose, and don’t we all? She constructed a religion around herself back when she was first turned, and she felt that it worked out really well for her. Of course, it was easier to manipulate ppl back when religion seemed to have more of the answers to all of our questions than science did.
and I feel like the others characters don’t try enough to make her understand this when they’re trying to convice her to stop.
^Keep in mind that the coven were all pretty frustrated at their failed attempts to reason with her, most of their arguments were met with personal attacks or just slippery gaslighting… and they were just on the edge of freaking out bc she can explode most of them with her mind ;A;
Lestat:
Dazed, she looked at me. I could feel death breathing on my face, death close as it had been years and
years ago when the wolves tracked me into the frozen forest, and I couldn’t reach up high enough for the
limbs of the barren trees.
The other characters did try to make her understand, but when someone is consumed by their own ideology, sometimes the only tactic that will work is backing off the issue itself and asking them to take more time to consider their chosen course of action, which may have given the coven more time to educate her or find some common ground on which to build some dialogue… which is what they were all doing.
Maharet says:
“Time,” Maharet said. “Maybe that is what we are asking for. Time. And that is what you have to give.”
…“You have meditated in silence for centuries upon your solutions. What is another hundred years? Surely
you will not dispute that the last century on this earth was beyond all prediction or imagining-and that the
technological advances of that century can conceivably bring food and shelter and health to all the peoples
of the earth.“
I-want-my-IWTV 